I miss the real Kermit

[Rugby]

I also miss Jim's Kermit. He had a quiet confidence about him. He didn't feel the need to work so hard for approval. Sometimes less is more. Also, Jim's had a magical warmth about him seen in many of the Christmas specials that just can't be duplicated. I think what maybe bugs me about Steve's is the Big Bird-like niavite in the inflection in the voice. I wish Steve could go lower with the voice as well. I've always felt that I was meant to do Kermit as I have a natural ability at moving my hands in sync with voice and doing Jim's voice pretty well. But whatever. I don't mean to put Steve down. It's just how I feel. My Kermit is gone and that's life. If I can survive losing my Dad, I can deal with this.

 

[JJandJanice]

I'm sorry... I don't buy the "Oscar is nicer" jazz at all. And here's why

These are 2 skits made in 1971, the show's second season
Ernie eats Bert's Ice Cream and Oscar intervenes
Ernie loses his Rubber Duckie, and Oscar helps out

I don't know about you, but I find that to be Oscar's friendliest behavior, even today. He's such a complex character that evolved out of just being a grump who tells everyone to "Go Away"... to me, he's always been grouchy, but he still genuinely cares about people, Slimey especially... but still Big Bird, Telly, and the humans. I recall a time since the 80's where he wasn't just grouchy, but he liked to spread grouchiness to others by pulling pranks. It happens... the character evolved.

Excatly, you pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. People sometimes don't seem to understand how complex Oscar the Grouch really is as a character. Some people label him as the "villain of Sesame Street" or the "meanie/bully" or whatever. That's not him at all, which is why I was a bit bummed to see him on the "evil imagation characters side" on the three part "Imagationland" episode of South Park, though like it's been stated some just don't see how complex of a character he really is. It's like what Caroll Spinney himself said in his book, even if Oscar was really hungry, he would always let a kid eat first, that rings so true. I don't buy that whole, "Oscar become nicer over the years" junk either. The dude may got annoyed with the humans and fellow Muppets on Sesame Street, but he wouldn't want to see something bad happen to them. That's why he's hands down my favorite SS Muppet,

 

[Super Scooter]

This is really... insane. Not three months ago, the boards were in an uproar that Disney tried to replace Steve... now he's not good enough again?

I suppose this is an argument that shall remain as long as there are Muppets. I love Kermit. He is one of the good things in life. It is true that no one could ever truly replace Jim (20 years later), yet Steve IS Kermit now, and I don't believe that there is a human being alive who could do a better job with the character... or voice, since that seems to be what some are so hung up on.

 

[D'Snowth]

This is really... insane. Not three months ago, the boards were in an uproar that Disney tried to replace Steve... now he's not good enough again?

Yeah, there's something seriously wrong with this picture.

 

[RedPiggy]

Meh. That's why I really don't care, not even when Kermit seemed to have a frog in his throat in two spots (sorry, it was obligatory). Frogs have different life stages. This is just one of Kermit's.

 

[Drtooth]

thank you, ive been trying to tell this to people for years, he even ate a phone and every other type of device trying to get a letter to santa.

Yeah, I say Cookie Monster is only a Cookie Monster because "Cookie" is his name... while it is his favorite food, he'll eat ANYTHING, and even tried to eat Guy Smiley on one occasion. I can get into all sorts of reasons why they wanted to have Cookie promote a healthy diet (most of which the bad press they got when
McDonald's became a sponsor... something Zurteck had no problem with I must point out)... but to me, Cookie Monster does eat Cookies... but only after a well balanced meal of a brick wall, a truck, the number 5, the moon.... Maybe he needs the roughage to get rid of all that stuff in his system.

but yes,Kermits been this way for years even during some of the Jim years

Yeah, it's something that tended to evolve off him, especially in the movies. While he does get easily frustrated with sketches on the Muppet Show as well as with certain people on Sesame Street, that side of Kermit only works in short sketches, not 90 minute full lenght movies where you explore deeper aspects of Kermit...

Though, I think we're forgetting VMX, when an angry, frustrated Kermit shouts out the entire cast, Piggy especially.

 

[Randall Flagg]

This is really... insane. Not three months ago, the boards were in an uproar that Disney tried to replace Steve... now he's not good enough again?

I wasn't here three months ago, so I missed that. When/how/why did Disney try to replace Steve?

 

[dwmckim]

First off in regards to Oscar - he is a Grouch. What does being a grouch mean? Being jaded, beaten down by life's experiences, having developed a thick skin, building walls around one's heart as opposed to wearing it openly on one's sleeve. (Something i can certainly relate to as i get older and life generally worse) A grouch still has a heart underneath it all and deep down would like to show it, but it's going to take a lot of work and time for it to happen. Oscar SHOULD have his nice side whether it's 1970 or 2010. I don't see his character having been that sanitized; if anything i find it refreshing that he's still been able to remain as negative and grumpy and cynical as he has (the one Muppet that would actually refer to Elmo as "the little red menace" just as many of his RL counterparts had been doing)

As per Kermit, when it comes right down to it, we would still be having these debates about Kermit EVEN IF JIM WAS STILL ALIVE AND PERFORMING HIM. Look at how different Kermit was in 1976 on the first season of TMS and just four years later in 1980 on the last season of TMS. The longer characters are in existence, the more they're going to evolve no matter who's playing them.

Some words on the subject from one of the people who knew these characters' souls the best - longtime Muppet head writer Jerry Juhl...from my interview with him about a decade ago:

JUHL: I personally feel Steve's certainly done a wonderful job with Kermit. It's always tricky, hard, and emotional both for the writers and the performers. Even when we decide to do it, the performers may have their own feelings. Ultimately, it depends on the project at the time.

ME: Steve Whitmire really has done an amazing job with Kermit. Also with Ernie.

JUHL: We really allow the performers to make the characters their own and Steve really has made them his own. We would never want a performer to be doing a copycat imitation, it's a true acting job in that sense. Since our comedy is character-based, they can't be static. They need to be able to grow.

ME: One piece of criticism that keeps coming up though is that Whitmire's Kermit is too "passive" and not as excitable as Jim's. Yet this really falls more into the writers' arena as opposed to being a particular fault of Steve's. In the films, Kermit's been playing other characters, Bob Cratchit and Captain Smollet, and on "Muppets Tonight", he's been in the role of executive producer and not on the front lines dealing with all the craziness.

JUHL: That was actually a conscious decision. Brian [Henson] and the writers of "Muppets Tonight" both felt they didn't want Kermit back out front again. Because then there would be the direct one-to-one comparisons between the old show and the new one. The Muppet Show was two decades ago and now we're in a new era and a new generation of comedy. I think the decision to make him the executive producer was a good idea, that seemed to be where Kermit was naturally headed. Then you can have Clifford come crawling to Kermit and Kermit saying, "Yeah, I understand, I've been there."

ME: The extraordinary thing about the Muppet cast in comparison to other families of fictional characters or even a lot of sitcoms aimed at adults is that the characters are always growing and evolving rather than remaining static. The downside to this is when fans complain, "Piggy's changed" or "Gonzo's mellowed" when in truth the basic essence of the character hasn't altered but they learn and grow and develop just as we all subtly change over the years. They gain more dimensions, even the ones that start out as one-note characters like Beaker, Animal, and the Swedish Chef. But then as a writer, how do you feel when you hear such criticisms?

JUHL: The last thing we want is for the characters to become predictable. When I see those comments, I don't know what to do. Sometimes I'll look at older tapes and ask has this character gone in a different direction? Still, I'm a strong believer in having the main characters evolve and keeping them fresh and finding new places to put them. Otherwise, they would just be corporate icons. They need the space to move on and grow and to allow the writers and the audience to find out new things about them. So, I'm sorry if it disappoints some people, but it's like all my friends that I've known for a long time too, they've changed over the years as well.

 

[Super Scooter]

Thank you for posting that, dw.

I wasn't here three months ago, so I missed that. When/how/why did Disney try to replace Steve?

No one knows the why, but as for when and how, there were two television appearances in September/October in which Kermit was not Kermit. He wasn't played by Steve. At the VMAs, Lady Gaga brought faux-Kermit as her date, and earlier in the year faux-Kermit sang on America's Got Talent. But that's all in the past, and I can rest comfortablly knowing that Kermit is once again in good hands.

 

[Randall Flagg]

No one knows the why, but as for when and how, there were two television appearances in September/October in which Kermit was not Kermit. He wasn't played by Steve. At the VMAs, Lady Gaga brought faux-Kermit as her date, and earlier in the year faux-Kermit sang on America's Got Talent. But that's all in the past, and I can rest comfortablly knowing that Kermit is once again in good hands.

Cool, thanks for the info.

Like I started this thread saying-- I have no problem with the voice or the mannerisms, really. My problem is with the writing. So I don't fault Steve for that at all. I just don't particularly care for the role the writers choose for Kermit these days. Also, I can understand the reasons for changing him a bit, but I still think Kermit was a funnier, more likeable character in the past. And I think if Steve were given different material to work with, he'd have no trouble bringing back "classic" Kermit. He's certainly talented enough to do it.

Regarding my comments about Oscar-- I have to admit, I very rarely see Sesame Street these days, so maybe I was off-target when I said he changed. But the few times when I HAVE seen the shown, he seemed less aggressive than he used to be. One of the classic Oscar scenes I think of is the one from Christmas Eve On Sesame Street, when Oscar is yelling at Big Bird on the subway train station, telling him what a stupid bird he is, and then a train rumbles by, conveniently muffling what we can assume was some foul language. That's classic Oscar to me. Sure, he comes around by the end of the show, and he helps look for Big Bird, but until that point, he's an agressive little grouch. The few times that I have seen SS in recent years, I never see him act quite like that. And even the muppet itself looks a bit cleaner these days. The mean eyebrows seem a bit less mean, and the green fur is a bit cleaner.

Interestingly, I was reading some people's comments about CEOSS recently (on a different site), and a lot of the younger fans complained that Oscar was TOO grouchy back then, which again leads me to believe he must be different now, but I don't watch the show enough to say that with any certainty.