I miss the real Kermit

[Drtooth]

Regarding my comments about Oscar-- I have to admit, I very rarely see Sesame Street these days, so maybe I was off-target when I said he changed. But the few times when I HAVE seen the shown, he seemed less aggressive than he used to be. One of the classic Oscar scenes I think of is the one from Christmas Eve On Sesame Street, when Oscar is yelling at Big Bird on the subway train station, telling him what a stupid bird he is, and then a train rumbles by, conveniently muffling what we can assume was some foul language. That's classic Oscar to me. Sure, he comes around by the end of the show, and he helps look for Big Bird, but until that point, he's an agressive little grouch. The few times that I have seen SS in recent years, I never see him act quite like that. And even the muppet itself looks a bit cleaner these days. The mean eyebrows seem a bit less mean, and the green fur is a bit cleaner.

Yes... BUUUT... let's not forget he was the most concerned when the Bird went missing in the end. There is always that element of Oscar, sure... but I think Carol took a character that would potentially just growl and say "leave me alone" every so often, and created a real deep character... same thing he did when Big Bird was just a doofus with a Clem Kaddidlehopper voice... he completely changed the character, and I think for the better.

No one knows the why, but as for when and how, there were two television appearances in September/October in which Kermit was not Kermit. He wasn't played by Steve. At the VMAs, Lady Gaga brought faux-Kermit as her date, and earlier in the year faux-Kermit sang on America's Got Talent. But that's all in the past, and I can rest comfortablly knowing that Kermit is once again in good hands.

Honestly, I still think it was a case of a temporary emergency fill in than a case of replacement. We still don't know all the details, but even then I doubted it was a permanent thing.

 

[Frogpuppeteer]

I think what we gotta try to realize is characters can't stay the same over a number of years, no matter who they are or who owns them company wise.
I guess my example is Superman, he was created in a time when superheroes where new all at they did is kick and punch, superman has everything he is the goody goody of the hero world, It's nothing out of who is playing him or who voices him. look at him today compared to the superhero hype, 1 movie and that was it.DC's money maker right now is Batman. the character has a few good moments here and there but he just doesnt fit in todays world, reason being they dont wanna change him up. im not including smallville in this because ive seen the show and the way ive heard its not a continuing faction of superman just a story wb has.

then again theres the argument of loving the classic stuff, not wanting things to change is ok but characters need room to grow..if non of the muppets changed whatsoever i dont think they would still be around today

 

[Yorick]

I don't blame anyone for missing the old days, or mentioning what they'd change to make today's Muppets better. But I still have to say I am very happy with the job Steve is doing, and I hope he keeps up the great work! Same goes for the others, and I appreciate all their talents and thank them for keeping the Muppets alive and bringing some laughs and a smile to my face. Yes, there's a different vibe than there was years ago, but we can't be sure it wouldn't have changed even if we had the same crew. Obviously things wouldn't be exactly as they are now, but still - different. And just like anything else, some things are better than others. But from the Sam & Friends clips I've seen to specials today like Letters To Santa, I really do enjoy it all, I must say.

 

[Yorick]

A better written version of my previous post:

I don't blame anyone for missing the old days, or mentioning what they'd change to make today's Muppets better. But I still have to say I am very happy with the job Steve is doing, and I hope he keeps up the great work! Same goes for the others, and I appreciate all their talents and thank them for keeping the Muppets alive and bringing some laughs and a smile to my face. Yes, there's a different vibe than there was years ago, and just like anything else, some things are better than others. But from the Sam & Friends clips I've seen to specials today like Letters To Santa, I really do enjoy it all, I must say.

 

[Hat Sharpener]

While I was happy to see Kermit completely lose it in the 2002 Chrismtas movie, I'll admit that the character has just evolved. This started happening before Jim's passing, however.

In The Muppets Take Manhattan, he still had the same pressure on him as the Muppet Show (more?) but he didn't lose it, he got upset, but not over-the-top upset like the Muppet Show/Grover sketches.

And while my memories form 1989 are somewhat fuzzy by now, in The Jim Henson Hour he was definitely a more collected individual. The show where he takes a vacation comes to mind.

I think this discussion goes a little deeper than Jim vs. Steve.

Truth is, someday some of the younger people currently on this board will be arguing about how Kermit's not the same as he was in all those great Christmas Specials in the early 2000's, how Sesame Street hasn't been the same since Elmo stopped being the focus of the show, and how Pepe has been watered down by the executives at Disney.

The Muppets have an odd aspect to them in that they have been going for so long, that these shifts in character seem extreme. But who else in show business can you look back 30 years and make direct comparisons? These guys are going to live forever, and will keep changing.

Hopefully they will get good scripts and keep entertaining the world rather than becoming a corporate logo like Mickey Mouse and his crew. Does Mickey have a personality? I sure as heck couldn't describe it...

 

[Drtooth]

Hopefully they will get good scripts and keep entertaining the world rather than becoming a corporate logo like Mickey Mouse and his crew. Does Mickey have a personality? I sure as heck couldn't describe it...

Honestly, when it comes to Mickey, the only person that really gave him a personality is the late Wayne Allwine. I've said it a LOT, but he's been the best Mickey we've had... and I'm sure they gave him some kind of personality in the comics... though, I really only read Donald and Scrooge. And, I really think the sad thing is, it wasn't until years and years and YEARS later they did interresting things with the character... House of Mouse, Three Musketeers... etc. I just thought I'd point that out, since it seems pretty ironic.

In The Muppets Take Manhattan, he still had the same pressure on him as the Muppet Show (more?) but he didn't lose it, he got upset, but not over-the-top upset like the Muppet Show/Grover sketches.

I really think in the movies, he blamed himself for not being successful, not bad acts or anything like that. He took it out on himself, but not really in anger. Who can forget that amazing sequence in TMM where Kermit has a conversation with his innermost self? That was a very poignant moment... that and Kermit shouting off the edge of a building in MTM "I'M GONNA MAKE IT!" Angry, flustered skit Kermit doesn't really work in movies (except for VMX when he blows up at everyone).

 

[RedPiggy]

And, I really think the sad thing is, it wasn't until years and years and YEARS later they did interresting things with the character... House of Mouse, Three Musketeers... etc. I just thought I'd point that out, since it seems pretty ironic.

Yeah. I got really interested in House of Mouse. However, I find it odd that Disney had to turn Mickey into Kermit in order to make him interesting, LOL.

PS: I mean that in half-jest. Mickey's a bit more laid back than TMS Kermit, but, still ... House of Mouse, let's be honest, was TMS with Disney characters.

 

[JJandJanice]

Yeah. I got really interested in House of Mouse. However, I find it odd that Disney had to turn Mickey into Kermit in order to make him interesting, LOL.

PS: I mean that in half-jest. Mickey's a bit more laid back than TMS Kermit, but, still ... House of Mouse, let's be honest, was TMS with Disney characters.

Well to be fair, it's not like the Muppets were the first to come up with the idea of a variety show.

 

[RedPiggy]

No, they weren't, but it still reminded me of TMS.

 

[Drtooth]

It's not that I;m trying to beat up on this guy's opinion... but there is one other thing that I've been thinking about... when exactly was Bert mean to Ernie outside of the first season, when he called him Meatball and other little names like that? I always thought it was the other way around... Ernie always teasing Bert.

Another clear cut case of character evolution... Bert's first season (couple of seasons at most) character was gruff, and basically the straightman who just got angry at Ernie... But is seems that when Frank took Bert from being uptight to being dorky and strange in his own aspect did the character really take off. Among other things, I think when Bert's voice went from gruff to a more nasal tone, he was really able to emote, and that gave the character more of an angle.