Ask Ken at Palisades

[uncleduke]

Kane, Sorry bro, but the WOS line died after the assortment that had Willy, Ralph and Itchy & Scratchy.
If you go to Entertainment Earth, you can pick up the recent cases for about half price currently.
You are correct that the WOS figures were always meant for the mass market. Remember the furor over SMITHERS at Target and Wal-Mart. They did not want a toy with an "alternative lifestyle", and he was in series 2!. It makes one wonder if they will have the same attitude over the Peppermint Patty figure in the upcoming PEanuts line

 

[towels]

I'm not going to offer opinion one way or another on the debate, but I will pick at a couple of points.

1) TRU is the only large "brick and mortar" retailer
I have to disagree with this. The Musicland group has one or two stores in every mall I've ever been in. I'm not sure how big EB is, but they're big enough to get an exclusive.

2) The TV show will generate interest
I think it's a mistake to assume this. When Fox listed next seasons schedule, there were no Muppets. When Fox listed mid-season replacements, there were no Muppets. I just don't see any possibility of a new Muppet Show on TV until next September at the earliest. A lot can change in the next 15 months...

 

[Drtooth]

Well, since we're still throwing ideas to the company for Rizzo, I think there'd be a couple questions involved

#1: How big will Rizzo be? Is he going to be in scale with the other character? If so, he's about half (or so) the size of most characters. He'd probably be the size of The Bart action figure or the smaller Scratchy the cat action figure (I'm using Simpson figures as a model, because most people here seem to collect them and know what I mean) If not, he's the size of the other figures (which would look a little silly, but no complaint, since there'd be more detail in it). This might help us determine what should the size be for his accessory.

#2 Do you see Rizzo with an accessory, or another character? And If you decide on a classic character (and not, as I suggested, Pepe) what other small, short character would come with him (Cammella is planned for another Gonzo, and I hear Robin might come with Sweetums)? Or would you make Rizzo the accessory character for another Muppet?

#3: Does the set have to be related with just the Muppet show? I mean, he could be a waiter (with a tie on apron and a tray) like in Muppets Take Manhatten or something. If he does have to be from the show, ponder this: An electric Gutiar. I belive he was in a number with Janice and Animal once, Fifty Ways to Leave your Lover, I presume.

#4 (and thankfully the last one) Have you considered Multiple accessoris? You could give him different food items (maybe the talking vegetables) , and maybe a mouse Trap. If anyone has seen several episodes with him in it, please give out some ideas

 

[Michael Crawford]

Misconceptions

Let's see if we can clear up a few misconceptions.

"Of course these figures are meant to be popular with the general public - otherwise places like TRU, FAO Schwartz and other general toy retailers wouldn't have placed orders and they'd be left to the smaller comic stores and things."

TRU is the only major retailer. FAO? They have 23 stores. TRU has close to 1500. TRU is the only mainstream toy retailer right now carrying Muppets. Hopefully that will change, but that is the current situation.

The Musicland family and EB stores are also not major players, because TOYS aren't their business. Even though they have a fair number of stores, they do not do the type of volume business in action figures that TRU, Target or Wal-mart do. Even regional stores like Meijers does far more volume. New Force Comics does the same volume of simpsons figures on line as does EB.

"The Simpsons at the start was really meant for collectors and was the reason why they used smaller stockists but when they got popular thats when the bigger retailers picked the figures up. You'll notice also they've done lots of Homer & Bart variants to keep the more recognisable figures out there on the shelves. With the Muppets the whole process is kinda reversed but i think its a big mistake to have the two main players - Kermit & Piggy just totally disapear from the line over the next couple of months. I know the other wave one characters have been very popular but then it's a very strong line up - some of the other later waves are a lot more obscure and weaker. "

That is simply untrue. Playmates has stated as fact that they intended the Simpsons line as a kids line at the start. Also, the number of retailers dropped, not increased - Wal-mart, K-mart and Target were all on board for the initial series, but have come and gone at various points since.

While you might think they did Homer's and Barts to keep them on the shelves, the reality is they did them because variants are far cheaper to produce. Much of the molds are done, and with the WOS figures a crucial fact that can't be ignored is the extra expense of licensing the voices for the sets. Once they already have Nancy Cartwright all set, it's easier to produce another Bart than it is an Agnes Skinner.

"You are right that Palisades are smaller and so can probably manage on fewer quantiities and keep the line going longer but i think it's very decieving about just how much support for the Muppets there is on the internet. There are only a few hundred members here and this is the largest Muppet site, i think the Henson people before have researched the hardcore fanbase is only between 600 and 1000 people. If you translate it into figure sales it would mean that the sales to 'normal' people in the 'real world' would be VERY important to Henson and Palisades and have a big thing to do with how far the line goes. I also think it's a bit early to start judging how 'hot' the line is when the figures have only just been released - of course the first batches have sold out quickly, they will do - the moment of truth is when all the stocks have hit and there are large quantities available for people to buy."

No, what you're doing is deceiving yourself into believing that all the hard core fans of the Muppets are on the net, and pay attention to groups like this. SCS is the largest site for Simpsons on the web, with 2300 unique members. If that's all the hard core fans, how can they possible sell 60,000 Moe figures? The simple fact is that there are far more fans out there than are on the net groups. I didn't say they were dependent on net fans - just fans/collectors and not the casual buyer.

The other entire group your ignoring is toy collectors. There are lots of those - several companies, including McFarlane, exist only because toy collectors exist. And there are lots and lots of toy collectors who may not be huge muppets fans, don't dissect the shows, or worry about the show in general, but will be more than happy to jump in and buy every Muppet figure produced.

"Kane, Sorry bro, but the WOS line died after the assortment that had Willy, Ralph and Itchy & Scratchy. If you go to Entertainment Earth, you can pick up the recent cases for about half price currently. You are correct that the WOS figures were always meant for the mass market. Remember the furor over SMITHERS at Target and Wal-Mart. They did not want a toy with an "alternative lifestyle", and he was in series 2!. It makes one wonder if they will have the same attitude over the Peppermint Patty figure in the upcoming PEanuts line "

There was no furor over Smithers, other than the one scalpers made up to try to push the sales of the short packed figure. And again - SImpsons were meant for the mass market at first BUT HAVEN'T BEEN FOR QUITE SOME TIME! And they have been able to be extremely successful.

And don't kid yourself on the success of the WOS line - when the buyers for stores like TRU and EB were first talking about the Muppets last winter, the first thing out of their mouth was "I think this will be the next WOS!" And they viewed that as an extremely good thing.

"1) TRU is the only large "brick and mortar" retailer
I have to disagree with this. The Musicland group has one or two stores in every mall I've ever been in. I'm not sure how big EB is, but they're big enough to get an exclusive."

I already mentioned that, but figured it was worth mentioning again. Musicland has enough stores to be counted as a large retailer, but we aren't talking about CD's or DVD's here. We're talking about action figures, which are an extremely small percentage of their business. The size of their orders is dwarfed by the size of a TRU order (or Wal-mart, Target, Meijers or one of the other larger chains if Palisades can get them on board).

Right now, the Muppets line is being sold to collectors, whether that's what Palisades wants or not. The only retailer that average kids and parents are going to see these at is TRU. Collectors are the predominate audience to all the on-line stores, and places like EB and Musicland.

My point is that they can sell this line successfully only to collectors, if they manage the line right, and don't have to sell to people who would normally never buy action figures.

Michael
MWC

 

[kane31666]

Uncleduke, I don't agree. I dont' the WoS line declined after wave 4! Wave 4! are you kidding. Wave 8 has been the only shaky line thus far. Wave 4 came out a year ago, and the Simpsons has been the hottest line for the past year, explain that for me.

 

[towels]

Re: Misconceptions

Other than Kaybee, I can't think of any other mainstream toy retailers that fit your descriptions. If you can't or won't count EB or Suncoast/Musicland, because their primary focus isn't toys I'm not sure why your bring up WalMart and Target. If the discussion is about targetting the general public, I think having 2-3 locations in every major mall where these can be found does meet that purpose.
Secondly, I think there are a lot more "average kids and parents" in places like EB and Suncoast then there are collectors. I would have to belive that would go for on-line as well. EB Games.com is going to get more public and sites like New Force Comics will get more collectors.
I guess I'm still not sure what the problem is with selling to people who normally never buy action figures. It seems to me a strategy of trying to increase the potential market is a good one.

 

[kane31666]

MWC, I agree with you on every point you made.

Towels, he counts Wal-Mart and Target, because they have a much larger toy section in there stores, at least 3-5 aisles. But a Musicland or EB, has a small display for all the toys the entire store carries. It's more based on the amount of toy lines and toys themselves that they carry.

 

[kane31666]

And I don't recall anything about a furor over Smithers. The real story is that when wave 2 originally shipped, no Smithers were included in the assortment(MWC correct me if i'm wrong), when the second shipment came, Smithers was shortpacked, I believe only one figure per case of 12. They didn't start evenly packing the figures until wave three with two figures of each in a case of 12.

 

[ZootandDingo]

Re: Misconceptions

Originally posted by Michael Crawfor
I already mentioned that, but figured it was worth mentioning again. Musicland has enough stores to be counted as a large retailer, but we aren't talking about CD's or DVD's here. We're talking about action figures, which are an extremely small percentage of their business. The size of their orders is dwarfed by the size of a TRU order (or Wal-mart, Target, Meijers or one of the other larger chains if Palisades can get them on board).

I think you might be underestimating the Musicland company as a whole just a tad. As I'm sure you know, you can walk into any Suncoast or Media Play and see that they have a considerable toy section.

True, toys are not going to overthrow their bread-and-butter, but you have to give them their due credit.

Also, when you consider that the business EB sees is almost exclusively collectors and gamers, the Musicland stores are going to be the only other stores that more casual shoppers are going to see the Muppet figures at.

Then, there's always the KB Toys factor. I haven't heard anything about the actual stores carrying the figures, but the web site will. I believe the brick-and-mortar stores promote the web site via receipts and in-store ads. It's not much, but it's still going to be some sorta mass-market exposure.

 

[beaker]

Just read all the posts in the last day, here's my take:

Simpsons collectors site has 2300 and MC only has 200+?
The Muppets have been around for almost half a century, and the Simpsons, what...early obscure shorts in 1987? 1989 when the series actually debuted? I actually am happy about the 2 year old Simpsons rennasaince...but.....

I think I know why the SC site has vastly more fans and the WOS line in general is more widely hailed: The simpsons is shown twice daily and once on sunday on REGULAR TV. With the excpetion of Sesame Street, YOU HAVE TO HAVE CABLE to watch the Muppets now days. It made me so mad that Fraggle Rock was never on regular tv, and the only representation of the Muppets on non cable is commercials and tv appearences.

Also, The Simpsons is a strong PG/to almost tv14 half the times. This insures a 'non kiddy' thought process in the mainstream...so WOS of course would appeal to a broader folk. Sadly, the thought is the Muppets is old baby stuff. The word 'nostalgia' comes to mind unfortunately for a lot, which is why Pepe and other newer characters are a must in a year.

I have no idea what the retailer facts are...but as of right now I have seen no sign of the Muppet figures except at EB(about 4 total) and suncoast. This may just be a California backorder thing, but certainly for whatever reason the Playmates line is available virtually ANYWHERE in large quantities while th eMuppets line as of this writing is virtually non existent in my area.
As for Mcfarlane, personally I dont see how they make much money. A lot of the figures they make are just grotesque, ugly, and have next to zero articulation. The only line of theres thats awesome to me is the anime line. I mean that clive barker line? ugh.


pepe: For the longevity of the line, and because hes already become one of the biggest Mupet guns(and will continue to be next year) I think Pepe should be slated for a wave 6-8 to coincide with 2003. Fans who dont think Pepe should be in this line are kidding themselves: Having a pure 25th ANNV only line will only work for now. But in a year? What if WOS simpsons was just 'WOearly90'sS'? I think it'd be quite important for the sales of these figures to begin to have folks like Pepe, Sal, Bobo, etc by wave 7 and up if JHC indeed plans on having them become incresingly bigger players.

And why hasnt there been mention of Clifford? Since 1993. heck 1989 hes been an ever incresingly MAIN player. There doesnt seem to be much love for the catfish 'like' guy on here, even though JHC has pushed him to be one of the main 7 in recent years. PErsonally hes one of my favorite Muppets.

Is is odd how with each wave the line gets even more obscure...though if a sculpt is good and the character looks awesome...does recognition even matter? why is it because you dont automatically know the character, ya wont buy him?
Personally, I think Beaker and Swedish Chef would sell through the roof if they were sold individually, as I know so many legions of twenty somethingers remember these folks without a doubt.
But, being as theyre bundled with $20+ playsets, its hard to see
them selling half as well as if they were sold individually.

About the pre release hype...its only natural. I myself have been clamouring for new Muppet figures since my first post on mc almost 4 years ago. And since the fp figures in the 80's Ive been wanting Muppet figures, as have we all. So as long as this hype is within this circle its fine. as for people on the WOS SC site saying they wont buy the Muppet figures cuz of overhype or exclusives, they can be stuck watered down yellowness and miss out on endlessly brillaint sculpts.

Finally, Luke, Ive also heard that JHC tally was around 1000 hardcore fans. 200+ of which are here, others on ebay and other sites. Isnt it amazing how there is tens of thousands of hardcore simpsons fans, but for the Muppets...which have been seen by virtually billions of people for 50 years, only 1000 hardcore?
sheesh


///beaker///