"The Muppets" isn't the Muppets

[RedPiggy]

I don't even know what to make of this conversation anymore

The problem is that the Muppet cast is eclectic. Once you start getting rid of someone for this or that, you're left with nothing but singing accountants ... or you would, had they not been fired for being boring.
Sam the Eagle is conservative (and not the evil conservatism of BP Richfield, neither) and despises the very hippie-ish Electric Mayhem. Both think the other are really, really wrong. However, they are BOTH still employed by Kermit the Frog. Conformity and the Muppets just don't gel.

Whoopi has been a great supporter of the Muppets for many years and she's never inserted her politics into any of their productions.

LOL, well, the only one I remember is the shrub joke in VMX.

And on the opposite end of the spectrum, how dare the Muppets welcome conservatives like Jon Voight, Ben Stein, not to mention Barbara and Laura Bush both appearing on Sesame Street.

I forgot his name, but that comedian on that countries of the world-type episode of the MUppet show was highly offensive and the worst of the bunch, IMHO. If guys like him can come on the show, there should be no nay-sayers when Whoopie shows up.

 

[Pinkflower7783]

That's not what I meant when I said that but whatever. :S

 

[Rugby]

Indeed. No polarizing figures should work with the Muppets. No matter if they're actually talented performers and their views on things outside of the project in question isn't given any kind of platform in the production. Even if they're Academy Award winners, it shouldn't matter.

For that matter, let's just scrub all the episodes of The Muppet Show with any kind of "polarizing figures" from any future dvd releases or tv broadcasts. Does anyone ever need to see the episodes with Lena Horne, Candice Bergen, Rudolph Nureyev, Elton John, Alice Cooper, Liberache, Harry Belafonte (even if that was Jim Henson's favorite episode), Carol Channing, Joan Baez, Glenda Jackson, Paul Simon, Tony Randell, or Linda Ronstadt ever again? In fact you know what REALLY needs to happen again? The old system of blacklisting performers, that's what! A degenerate like Will Lee should never have been allowed to play Mr. Hooper. Or any of those other "undesirables" that made up the bulk of the human cast of Sesame in its formative years.

Polarizing figures? They shouldn't even be allowed to use polar fleece to build Muppets with!

And what about that Jim Henson fella? Too much of a granola-chewin', environmentalist peacenik to have his name associated with the Muppets. Let's dub over all his old performances with Steve Whitmire's voice.

Wow. Hardy what I said. I think to say you went off on a tagent is an understatement. Seems to me there is no room for differences of opinions with you. I'm merely participating in discussion, but you feel the need to attack. Good job.

 

[jvcarroll]

Wow. Hardy what I said. I think to say you went off on a tagent is an understatement. Seems to me there is no room for differences of opinions with you. I'm merely participating in discussion, but you feel the need to attack. Good job.

I too thought you stated that the Muppets should refrain from using any political or polarizing figures because the liberal ones, like Whoopi, offend you. DW was colorfully demonstrating the rich history of the Muppets in that context. Much of entertainment skews liberal and a lot of actors tend to be vocal about their beliefs. The vetting process you propose would be nearly impossible. Heck, I don't appreciate much of what Mel Gibson has done and said in the press or his very violent religious film, but I'd welcome his working with the Muppets. Above all, the Muppets are about funny and there's no doubt that would be hilarious!

 

[Pinkflower7783]

The Muppets are all about laughs and having fun anyways. Why must politics be brought into this in the first place?

 

[Ruahnna]

Where the heck have I been while this thread was raging? (In school, at the hospital, at the funeral home--so sue me.) This was a lovely, thoughtful conversation to drop in on and I have a few things to add--scattershot, I'm afraid, and I was reading so fast and so much that I may make a point someone else has made, or that I have made in some other thread, but anywho....

I'm firmly in the camp that liked VMX--it was a finely crafted film that brought many of the characters to new places. Gonzo is particularly wonderful in VMX, and if you really watch him and listen to him--especially when he doesn't actually have lines but is adlibbing, or "listening" to the other characters, well, he's bloody brilliant. Dave deserved/deserves a big, wet kissy-kissy for the way that Gonzo just anchors this story without actually being a major character. Just like in TMM, it is Gonzo's odd way of seeing things that helps Kermit focus on what he wants, and what he wants to do. I also adored the depth that was added to Fozzie's character and to his relationship with Kermit. Hmmm. Maybe I shouldn't say "added." Maybe I should say "reminded," because on TMS, you knew--you just knew that the bear and the frog were tight, were solid, and that--even if everything flopped--even when everything flopped--they could still go out for a root beer afterward and chuckle about the good stuff. When Kermit finds Fozzie hiding, certain Kermit will un-friend him or, worse yet, be disappointed in him it is just an amazing moment. All the heart you could ever want and then some, and Kermit gets to actually say some of the things we always sortof knew about their relationship but had remained largely unsaid. Think about it--Jim's Kermit implied more by his actions--his feelings for Piggy, his benevolent irritation with Gonzo, his affectionate long-suffering with Fozzie's insecurity. When Steve came along, more of those feelings got said out loud. I don't know why, exactly, but it just is. Maybe it's like Captain Kirk vs. Captain Picard. If Kirk was your captain, you could rest assured that he would kick A and take names and then--when his people and his ship were secure--he would offer the firm Federation handshake and all the help in the universe to unravel the pickle the aliens were in. With Picard, you might have some deep-seated insecurity about whether or not Picard would actually defend your rights against the aliens that wanted to eat you or take over your body, but you would see it coming a mile away because he would spend 35 minutes of each episode talking about it. If that sounds like a criticism, it's not--it's just a recognition that different people "manage" in different ways. I hope it goes without saying that Jim's Kermit was one of the first real loves of my life, but there are things I like about Steve's verbal, playful Kermit, and when that Kermit finally had an adult relationship moment and told Piggy how he felt, well--it just blew me away with her. I guess I've been waiting my whole life, in one way or another, for Kermit to declare himself, and it was worth waiting for (even though I still think they were/are married).

I had other things to say, but they don't seem important, so I'll say just one more thing and then quit. Stuart, honey, I think that some of what you are talking about with the movie seeming like an "insider" job is that, well, it sortof was. It was made by muppet geeks for muppet geeks, with tons and tons of little marvelous in-jokes that only the fans will catch, i.e., Wayne and Wanda getting all hot and heavy with the lights out. Fans know things and what those things mean, and I can tell you that--as a fan writer (yeah, yeah--I know most of you don't read the fanfic here--but you should, once in a while!) it is an absolute thrill to throw out a little hook (an insider reference) and see if anyone catches it. It's fun when someone gets it because, hey! They got it! It's fun, as an author, when they don't get it because you get to feel very sneaky and subversive. The Muppets was just FULL of little funny muppetisms that made US laugh but might not have been as funny to non-insiders. Once again, I turn to Star Trek. (My apologies to the all the children here who were not born when the real Star Trek was on.) In Star Trek V (yes--I went there, to the worst of the entire series), at the end oft the movie when Kirk, Spock and McCoy are sort of "de-briefing" around the campfire, Spock says, "I lost a brother today." And Kirk says, "I lost a brother once." It is, in a bad movie, a touching scene, and immediately all of us Star Trek geeks are out there in the audience going, "Yes! That's right! Kirk did lose a brother once! It was in that episode where those little fried egg things were attaching people!" (Or, if you are a REAL Star Trek geek, you say, "Yes! Kirk's brother Sam died in Operation: Annihilate from being attacked by a Denevan parasite! How nice that he is empathizing!) That's where the writers knew the die-hard fans would go, but that's not where the writer's were taking us! Before we can gloat over our superior knowledge of episode trivia, Kirk smiles at Spock and says, (catch your breath!) "But I was lucky--I got him back!" (catch your breath again!) That is writing that knows its fan base. That wasn't there for the average movie-going fan--that was for us! For the fans! And all the little moments in The Muppets were like that moment--little loves notes to say, "I get you. I know you're out there. I love you, man--thanks for watching." And if the average casual fan movie-goer feels like the date of someone at a family wedding instead of like a member of the family, well...we throw a good party and they'll just have to find something to entertain themselves with.

Ru
(who should probably be going for a degree in pop-psy bs instead of a teaching certificate!)

 

[CensoredAlso]

Think about it--Jim's Kermit implied more by his actions--his feelings for Piggy, his benevolent irritation with Gonzo, his affectionate long-suffering with Fozzie's insecurity. When Steve came along, more of those feelings got said out loud. I don't know why, exactly, but it just is.

Sorry to be blunt but for me that's the difference between good writing and not so good writing. The rule of TV and movies: Show don't tell.

 

[RedPiggy]

While normally I would agree, it got to the point where I was willing to strangle Kermit unless he'd say it out loud.

 

[Ruahnna]

Sorry to be blunt but for me that's the difference between good writing and not so good writing. The rule of TV and movies: Show don't tell.

I bow to your directness. A poet friend and I have a little saying about writing poetry: Never say what you can imply, and never imply what you can allude to. There is a lovely art to understatement, and it is becoming a lost art.

I did actually adore Kermit's more direct method of showing his appreciation of Piggy in VMX, but, oh! it was lovely, lovely, wonderful to hear him say it. I am sorry that the wording that was in the book version, which I assume came from the original script, was not actually used. Kermit says, "There's never been anyone else for me." I think they probably cut it because Piggy's response, "And you for me, Kermie" was awkwardly phrased. I much preferred her little sound of dumbfounded bliss.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I bow to your directness. A poet friend and I have a little saying about writing poetry: Never say what you can imply, and never imply what you can allude to. There is a lovely art to understatement, and it is becoming a lost art.

Thanks for understanding; I felt bad putting it that way, lol.