The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

D'Snowth,
I actually mostly agree with your views (minus the political statements). I am still on the fence of supporting leagalizing gay marriage and I don't support homosexuality becuase it's a sin. But I do think if we want to live by Christ's example, we need to show Love to all people. Today, there is so much hate in the world and we seem to think that we can attcak people because they are "sinners." Jesus called these very people, and even religous leaders of that day, hypocrites. I feel like we live in a very similiar age today that Jesus lived in.

You are also absolutely right, that sin is everywhere. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Nobody is "holier than thou" because we are all sinners and no sin is greater than another. Therefore, it is not our job to judge others, becuase that is only God's job because he is perfect. For our sin outweighs all of our good deeds, therefore we cannot make it into heaven on our own. None of us.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."- Romans 6:23

There's the good news! We cannot make it into heaven on our own but we have somebody who allows us to get into heaven by the perfect gift and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. You see, God loves us so much that he sent his only son, his perfect son, to die a brutal death FOR YOU. It is our job to just accept that gift from him. Honestly, I am not worthy to get into heaven. I sin everyday and I don't know how God can still love me after all I've done. But he does. I don't know about you, but that crazy. That is crazy, unconditional love right there.

D'snowth, you said it well in your last post. There may be a few things I disagree with you on, but that's no big deal. Honestly, I am so glad that God loves me so much that he sent his son to die for me. Therefore, it's not my job to judge others but to spread his good news.

Again. You may call yourself a sinner all you like, but please don't lump me in with you by calling me a sinner too for any reason. It is your belief that being gay is a sin and that "we are all sinners". It is not a point of fact. That comes off as both judgment and name calling even if it's not your intention. I thought we were beyond that in this thread.

As for your continual reiteration of being on the fence about allowing gays equal marriage rights - how would you feel if others were debating Christians' right to worship and share their love for Jesus in this country? That's a legitimate concern elsewhere in the world and people use the same rhetoric against them that you just pointed at gays. Imagine if religious folk were silenced in all of America just as they are in many public schools. That's scary! All of it reveals a needless prejudice that is ugly no matter where it comes from. If you promote limiting the rights of others you must also be prepared to have your rights limited too. One's personal beliefs should not infringe on the rights of others.

 

[Drtooth]

Again. You may call yourself a sinner all you like, but please don't lump me in with you by calling me a sinner too for any reason. It is your belief that being gay is a sin and that "we are all sinners". It is not a point of fact. That comes off as both judgment and name calling even if it's not your intention. I thought we were beyond that in this thread.

That's what I call the "as tolerant as it gets" paradox. You can't expect these kinds of beliefs, religious or otherwise to evolve over night. I don't think Banana here is a bad guy by any means, his beliefs are a product of what he was raised on. Again, we have to wait this stuff out until views evolve or at least people stop giving a crap about something that's essentially a footnote.

However, I completely agree that stomping on someone's rights is UNAmerican. Any excuse can be uttered in the book, but denying rights, even with the best of intentions, doesn't make anyone happy. I'm starting to think the anti-gay stuff is more and more about sex, why wouldn't people want them to enter into a union that actually supresses as much sex as possible. Hey! Let them adopt babies. All that crying in the middle of the night.... you see where I'm getting.

We have to think BEYOND the religious aspect of marriage. I mean, quicky sham weddings that lead to divorces are NOT sacred either, but no one's shutting down Vegas love chapels and divorce lawyer offices. And it isn't just about a union before the eyes of God, it's a union before the eyes of the government so people CAN have the same tax breaks and benefits as most marriages take for granted. Denying that isn't Christian. We all have to help each other out.

 

[frogboy4]

That's what I call the "as tolerant as it gets" paradox. You can't expect these kinds of beliefs, religious or otherwise to evolve over night. I don't think Banana here is a bad guy by any means, his beliefs are a product of what he was raised on. Again, we have to wait this stuff out until views evolve or at least people stop giving a crap about something that's essentially a footnote.

However, I completely agree that stomping on someone's rights is UNAmerican. Any excuse can be uttered in the book, but denying rights, even with the best of intentions, doesn't make anyone happy. I'm starting to think the anti-gay stuff is more and more about sex, why wouldn't people want them to enter into a union that actually supresses as much sex as possible. Hey! Let them adopt babies. All that crying in the middle of the night.... you see where I'm getting.

We have to think BEYOND the religious aspect of marriage. I mean, quicky sham weddings that lead to divorces are NOT sacred either, but no one's shutting down Vegas love chapels and divorce lawyer offices. And it isn't just about a union before the eyes of God, it's a union before the eyes of the government so people CAN have the same tax breaks and benefits as most marriages take for granted. Denying that isn't Christian. We all have to help each other out.

I agree with you that we all have to help each other out. Well said!

The next person that regurgitates the "love the sinner, not the sin" or "we are all sinners" rhetoric at me or gay folk in general is gonna get a heck of a rant. All it does is make the Christian feel superior in their own mind while the person they've told it to sees them as a jerk. That sort of talk is simply self-important condescension masquerading as compassion.

 

[Drtooth]

The next person that regurgitates the "love the sinner, not the sin" or "we are all sinners" rhetoric at me or gay folk in general is gonna get a heck of a rant. All it does is make the Christian feel superior in their own mind while the person they've told it to sees them as a jerk. That sort of talk is simply self-important condescension masquerading as compassion.

Somehow I always felt that deep down, half the reason why certain religious types hate or are told to hate homosexuality is that they look down on heterosexual sex as well.

Though I will agree... EVERYTHING is a sin. We're supposed to pretty much live in mud huts and give half of everything we have to people who have slightly less than us. I'm of the persuasion that says, if it's not in the 10 commandments, it doesn't count.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I'll say this:

If I thought God only accepted those who accepted him, then I wouldn't accept him.

Thankfully, I don't believe that to be the case.

I hope that made sense, lol.

 

[Bannanasketch]

Obviously, my plea is falling on deaf ears. Frogboy, obviously you think that you're fine now and you don't sin and that you don't need a savior. That's a nice thought but it's a lie. You may believe that now but someday you'll have to answer for that. You obvioulsy disagree with me and won't accept God's love. Therefore, there really is no more point to me actually posting in this thread. You think that I'm being judgemental and probably even a bigot. That's fine. Jesus said that the world will hate me but I must persevere. Also, my rights are being attacked and Christians are being silenced. But now, while I still have these rights I will stand up for them. Once Christians begin to be persecuted in America, there will be a movement to step up and fight back. And I will gladly suffer for the name of Christ. Honestly, I just hope somebody can reach you and I hope that I can reach out to others more.

@Drtooth: My views won't evolve, at least not the way you think they will. I will always love my savior and I will always reach out and tell everyone I know about him. He died for me, and the least I can do is live like he did and spread his good news to all who listen. I AM NOT ASHAMED OF THE GOSPEL! I will shout it from the rooftops. Yet, here, my message is not being heard. So, there's no reason to continue this, obviously.

@Heralde: Is that what the bible says? I look at grace like a gift. God gave his only so to die as a gift. He's offering this gift to EVERYONE. Now, it's just our job to decide whether we take that gift or now. Now, in some cases, people don't accept the gifts given to them. such is also the case with God's grace. Is it the fault of the giver if the gift is not accepted? Of course not! Just think about it.

I know that my replies are obviously going to offend some of you and are contreversial but this is the truth and I believe it's my job to speak the truth! I'm sorry if this offends anybody.

 

[CensoredAlso]

@Heralde: Is that what the bible says? I look at grace like a gift. God gave his only so to die as a gift. He's offering this gift to EVERYONE. Now, it's just our job to decide whether we take that gift or now. Now, in some cases, people don't accept the gifts given to them. such is also the case with God's grace. Is it the fault of the giver if the gift is not accepted? Of course not! Just think about it.

Many Christians disagree on the issue of grace vs. good works. That's what we're running into here, that's all. : )

this is the truth and I believe it's my job to speak the truth! I'm sorry if this offends anybody.

I always say, there's nothing wrong with talking. This is America and you're allowed to speak your mind even if I disagree with some things. And ultimately I find people's actions say more than their words anyway. I have friends that I disagree with but it doesn't matter because we're friends with each other, not our opinions.

Don't worry so much. Just because not everyone here has changed to your views doesn't mean you have failed as a Christian. You care about people and you've demonstrated that. That is what is important.

 

[RedPiggy]

Frogboy, obviously you think that you're fine now and you don't sin and that you don't need a savior. That's a nice thought but it's a lie.

How to say this ....
Imagine you have lived a long life without ever eating eggs. Now imagine that someone comes up to you, someone who not only eats lots of eggs but also has a vested interest in you buying and eating them. They claim that there is no way on Earth you will ever survive without eating eggs. It doesn't matter, they say, that you retort that some people are allergic to eggs. They will simpy die a horrible death after an awfully short life. It doesn't matter that so far, you've lived to 80 years of age without eating an egg. It's bound to catch up to you someday, they say.
"Let the Buyer Beware". "Judge a Tree by its Fruit."
Just because someone has claimed something is there, doesn't mean it is. Oil companies tell us that the whole world will implode if we stop using oil. Incandescent light bulb companies whine that we all die of mercury poison in the dark if we stop buying their products.
And Christianity is one of a few religions that tell others that we will suffer horrible consequences if we don't buy their particular brand of thought.

You may believe that now but someday you'll have to answer for that.

See? Told you so.

You obvioulsy disagree with me and won't accept God's love.

I don't think it's them who are not accepting God's love. I guess you've never entertained the concept that God has decreed He loves them and it's YOU with the problem? Remember how Jonah was so upset that God forgave the Ninevah folks? Well, that's really what you're doing ... God hasn't smited them and you aren't happy about it. You're all about listening to God, but as soon as it becomes clear that God has decided something you don't like, it gets on your nerves.

Also, my rights are being attacked and Christians are being silenced.

Every Christian who has ever been killed or tortured should have a little talk with you. God, it's offensive to whine about persecution when all we're doing is offering some perspectives on your worldview.

Once Christians begin to be persecuted in America, there will be a movement to step up and fight back.

Jesus' "turn the other cheek" just isn't your cup of tea, is it? Vandalism is the extent of Jesus' aggressive streak. Learn from that.

And I will gladly suffer for the name of Christ.

I doubt it. A little criticism and you cry like a baby. I'd hate to see what would happen should the kitchen get any hotter than room temperature.

 

[Bannanasketch]

Thanks Heralde for the encouragement. I honestly don't see why there should be an disagreement on grace vs. good works. The bible clearly states that it is by grace that we have been saved. Why do people keep trying to please God? Stop trying and actually let him help you out. I think the difference between religion and a true relationship with God is that religion is people trying to reach God themselves and a relationship is letting God actually holding you and helping you and it's nothing that you do. It's only grace.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I honestly don't see why there should be an disagreement on grace vs. good works. The bible clearly states that it is by grace that we have been saved. Why do people keep trying to please God? Stop trying and actually let him help you out.

It's not so much we think we have to please God. It's more that we feel that Jesus' main concern was the kind of people we are to others. That when he said to accept him, he meant to follow his example as a compassionate human being. He doesn't want us to worship him simply because he is God. That's what the Greek gods were like; it was all about power for them. The Christian God cares more about how I love my fellow human beings.

So maybe you won't convince everyone here to accept your beliefs. The most important thing is that you care about people.

And that goes for people of both "sides" of controversial issues. I think how you conduct yourself is ten times more important than how successful your argument is. Ideologies shouldn't become more important than people.