The Bible and Love and Christians

[RedPiggy]

What do the Conservatives that were just elected by angry old people want to cut most from the budget (besides Medicare)? Researching new alternative sources. We've been warned about oil since the 70's, and no one did a darn thing. We keep getting into deals with terrorists then fighting them to get the junk... It's not worth it! I don't see why they still deserve the tax cut AND a bug fat check bonus for NOT doing anything.

And it's not just oil. I've been kind of on an American History documentary kick, and we reached the Depression, including a massive dust storm that would make The Mummy's Imhotep cower in fear, LOL. This is all due to our "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality: we do something for short-term benefits and never think of the consequences, and when those consequences show up, it's never our own dang fault. Whether it's using oil (this was not always the case, as our country began with the use of whale oil, which naturally had an even shorter supply and I'm willing to bet the country heard the same whining about how our way of life NEEDED to kill a handful of God's biggest creatures so we can light a dang lamp), or not using windbreaks on farms, or plowing through a swamp (watch out, Kermit!) ... it NEVER occurs to a lot of this country such ideas could have a downside, and anyone who mentions there COULD be one is voted off the island for being a delusional naysayer (coughglobalwarmingcough).

I'd love nothing MORE than an actual factual isolationist to come out, but we're not going to get one.

Yeah. I actually wouldn't mind a conservative plan. I know it's possible. It's just frustrating no "conservative" is actually conservative ....

I hate the abortion issue because it's a double edged sword where no one really listens to the other side and none of it will ever be solved in our lifetime.

Well, I've been both pro-life and pro-choice. I can see both sides. I just don't feel the former position is based on anything but their own quirks. I don't mind people being against something because they think it's icky. I just wish, like gay marriage and other hot topics, they'd just leave alone topics that don't really affect them at all (and this is not to be a male dig ... if women don't want abortions, then just simply don't have them ... DON'T drag the rest of the female population into your desires).

Teenagers have a way of breaking the rules and will continue to do so no matter how watchful parents are. An after-the-fact "I told you so" just doesn't remedy anything.

Well, it's like Adam and Eve ... "I gave you a rule" doesn't do much if hormones are talking louder. Once conception occurs ... it's a little late to bemoan the situation, IMHO. All you can do is deal with the present situation, not whine endlessly about how Johnny and Jane "shoulda known better". They're basically KIDS ... they're NOT going to know better. Yes, they might be able to rattle off all the facts about sex, but memorizing trivia and living the experience are two different things and a lot of people can't cope with what biology tells them.

I've been a staunch supporter of transforming our culture AWAY from focuses on sex, so that we aren't priming poorly controlled hormonal drives. However, there's also the historical fact that the modern world has infantilized an age group that in ancient cultures would've been adults with all the rights therein. Perhaps by altering our perceptions of what makes an adult, we have forced our views to ignore realities and thus created this monster ourselves. We claim teenagers have no sense ... but let's face it ... we don't let them express any. Yes, child psychology says its thing, but if it's one thing psychology has been historically good at, it's ignoring cultural influences on the "facts". We don't really prep teens for adult life at all. Knowing what year Columbus sailed the ocean blue doesn't exactly help a teenager know how to run a living space of some sort. I'm not saying they SHOULDN'T know those things ... but equal time should be spent providing basic life skills. You can argue the implications of western cultural influence in college. For me, it's more important a child grow up and not be completely helpless when the washer breaks.

Abstinence isn't the only thing proving ineffective. Kids are taught about safe sex, but then just throw the condoms away. So saying, "We'll educate them" is good in theory, but not always in practice.

Indeed. As pro-lifers and pro-choicers aren't likely to agree on the nature of the pre-born, the best I think we can hope for is that both sides work together to prevent all but the medically necessary ones. No amount of philosophy is going to change the fact that occasionally, the biology of the mother (or the child) just doesn't lend well to continuing the pregnancy.

 

[Drtooth]

Again, I love Obama's sticking up for gay rights...but he does not deserve that peace prize. Already he's gotten thousands of civilians in Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen and Somalia killed in the last 2 and a half years. I can't and good conscience support that no matter how much of a comic book nerd he claims to be.

I have been saying this for years. He got the Nobel Peace Prize because he wasn't Bush. I know I'll never ever let it go, but let's face it. Those were some rough 8 years. Critics were silenced and vilified, we demonized countries that didn't want to help us in Iraq to a cartoonish degree, all the while we were being lied to about the economy being great when no one was actually buying anything, and the ones that were did it on credit they never paid off.

The only thing that really bugs me about this is if he did indeed go over Congress's head for Libya, WHY can't he go over their head and raise the heck out of tax for the people profiting off of all of this? Why can't we kill corporate welfare first and foremost? They're not making any jobs.

I don't think anyone, no matter how much of a peaceful person or isolationist they claim to be can ever stop us from being the world's big brother. One way we're killing innocent women and children, the other way, women are getting raped to death for going outside their homes in the name of a bizarre, mistranslated misinterpreted religious text passage. Why the heck is the UN so powerless? We built that stupid thing to make sure there weren't any more wars since WW2 and we've had 2-4 a decade since. Why does the Geneva convention say it's okay to kill civilians, but not send assassins and mercenaries to get rid of blood thirsty dictators?

But I can't just blame the president for it. Heck, I can't even just blame the last guy. I mean, sure... I hate the fact that as a pathetic attempt to be bi-partisan he hired half the guys that worked for Bush when it came to war and finance. I hate his pathetic bi-partisanship period. The last guy clearly wasn't. But these guys desperately want to keep their jobs. It's so funny... the people telling him to pull out of half these places for cheap political points probably won't let him do it. I mean, I don't envy anyone left in a situation of handling two botched wars, but I swear we can just yank ourselves out of Iraq right now. Still... I wish we could bill the Bush family, the Cheney family, Halliburton and all the other profiteers so our money won't be worthless.

Sigh... if only we left Afghanistan to the Russians instead of training people who would later use what we taught them on us.

I hate the abortion issue because it's a double edged sword where no one really listens to the other side and none of it will ever be solved in our lifetime.

If people really cared about human life, we wouldn't need to solve everything with war, kids wouldn't be killing each other over gold chains and Nikes, people would understand drunk driving is dangerous, wouldn't set homeless people on fire and put it on Youtube (but if you try to put up a Youtube Poop or long lost cartoon show, WATCH OUT!)... we'd think a LOT about that before abortion. What really angers me is that certain groups talk about the evils of abortion, but don't care what happens to the kid when it is born. Abortion is apparently in humane, sure...but letting them die on the streets or something is OKAY?!? If these people are so obsessed with right to life, they'd think just as hard about the quality of that baby's future life and lend a helping hand, instead of bribing politicians to share their views.

 

[beaker]

I have been saying this for years. He got the Nobel Peace Prize because he wasn't Bush. I know I'll never ever let it go, but let's face it. Those were some rough 8 years. Critics were silenced and vilified, we demonized countries that didn't want to help us in Iraq to a cartoonish degree, all the while we were being lied to about the economy being great when no one was actually buying anything, and the ones that were did it on credit they never paid off.

The only thing that really bugs me about this is if he did indeed go over Congress's head for Libya, WHY can't he go over their head and raise the heck out of tax for the people profiting off of all of this? Why can't we kill corporate welfare first and foremost? They're not making any jobs.

I don't think anyone, no matter how much of a peaceful person or isolationist they claim to be can ever stop us from being the world's big brother. One way we're killing innocent women and children, the other way, women are getting raped to death for going outside their homes in the name of a bizarre, mistranslated misinterpreted religious text passage. Why the heck is the UN so powerless? We built that stupid thing to make sure there weren't any more wars since WW2 and we've had 2-4 a decade since. Why does the Geneva convention say it's okay to kill civilians, but not send assassins and mercenaries to get rid of blood thirsty dictators?

But I can't just blame the president for it. Heck, I can't even just blame the last guy. I mean, sure... I hate the fact that as a pathetic attempt to be bi-partisan he hired half the guys that worked for Bush when it came to war and finance. I hate his pathetic bi-partisanship period. The last guy clearly wasn't. But these guys desperately want to keep their jobs. It's so funny... the people telling him to pull out of half these places for cheap political points probably won't let him do it. I mean, I don't envy anyone left in a situation of handling two botched wars, but I swear we can just yank ourselves out of Iraq right now. Still... I wish we could bill the Bush family, the Cheney family, Halliburton and all the other profiteers so our money won't be worthless.

Sigh... if only we left Afghanistan to the Russians instead of training people who would later use what we taught them on us.

If people really cared about human life, we wouldn't need to solve everything with war, kids wouldn't be killing each other over gold chains and Nikes, people would understand drunk driving is dangerous, wouldn't set homeless people on fire and put it on Youtube (but if you try to put up a Youtube Poop or long lost cartoon show, WATCH OUT!)... we'd think a LOT about that before abortion. What really angers me is that certain groups talk about the evils of abortion, but don't care what happens to the kid when it is born. Abortion is apparently in humane, sure...but letting them die on the streets or something is OKAY?!? If these people are so obsessed with right to life, they'd think just as hard about the quality of that baby's future life and lend a helping hand, instead of bribing politicians to share their views.

I used to think America did all these wars(mostly based on lies) for themselves. But now I wonder, what does America actually gain? Does America go to war to benefit Saudi Arabia, other Arab gulf states and Israel? Or does it go to war for private offshore megabanks? On the mainstream news it became public knowledge that in a plea deal, Wells Fargo's Wachovia bank had to admit to laundering a stunning 378 billion dollars for world drug cartels. It's also a fact that most of al Qaeda's money came from very rich and powerful Gulf state royalty, leaders and corporate heads in the Arab region(people who do billions of dollars in business with America, the UK, etc and enjoy protection from them)

Regarding what you were saying about Obama and Bush, to me these are just puppets. Figureheads. I think you're still thinking in terms of left/right. The whole system is a scam. It's like here...choose between wallstreet puppet #1 or wallstreet puppet#2(Both Obama and Mccain got almost equal money from the same corporations and mega banks) Some democracy we have. Now while I am hoping Obama draws down these wars, and certainly there may be some movement on this front...he seems to simply be drawing down troops in Iraq and Afghanistan to send to other new conflicts. There's already talks of sending in US ground forces into Libya as well as other regions. All these wars and US manuevering is greatly angering Russia and China. The situation with Pakistan continues to deteroriate...and just a few miles from America inside Mexico we have THE biggest war in the world right now. We definitely could be looking at world war 3 in the not too distant future, especially as the European and world economy continues to implode and riots sweep across the globe. So EVEN if Obama wanted to stop these conflicts, and do what is good for america...he cant. He and the government are bought, paid for and owned by much large trans-national interests. Men sworn toward sweeping the world into madness and chaos. Trust me, I've studied these basic contextual parapolitical patterns for years. As much as I can tell you about obscure Muppet trivia, I could give a 3 hour lecture on the post Ottoman empire era and how these new world order globalists as we speak have been maneuvering chess pieces into play for a very destabilizing agenda. 9/11 was pretty much the globalists opening salvou to cast off this state of affairs we've been in for the last ten years, al Qaeda merely their pawns(and not the "blowback" liberals try to paint 9/11 as)

Regarding abortion...most people do not realize that the very impetus of the American and British abortion movement was hardcore racist eugenists who obessively wrote and spoke of wiping out blacks and other "undesirables". Hitler even praised the founders of Planned Parenthood, then known as the National Birth Control league. Now, that is not to say Planned Parenthood's charter is still the genocide and sterilization eugenics of yesteryear, but that is the origins for better or worse. Sadly, these abortuaries are the only place poor white, black and hispanic women can get cheap or free OBGYN care, checkups or birth control.

anyways, you seem rightfully upset and frustrated at the state of things and system, but I don't think you fully understand the extent of the control mechanism in place nor the propaganda going on.

 

[frogboy4]

Abstinence isn't the only thing proving ineffective. Kids are taught about safe sex, but then just throw the condoms away. So saying, "We'll educate them" is good in theory, but not always in practice.

There are always going to be a reckless element, but it's incorrect to think that all the kids really are getting adequate sex ed. They're not. The myths that most young people still believe is astounding! And I'm not talking backwoods folk. There's a lot of buck-passing and assumption that kids know more than they do and that's dangerous.

Too many religious conservatives promote the idea that safe sex is just as risky and therefor kids avoid the hassle of protection altogether. I'm not sure where the Pope's stance is on birth control pills and condoms, but I doubt it's changed all that much. That is reckless on an unforgivable level!

And I would want to work so the woman doesn't have to make that choice, ever. Plus as a woman I don't want to think that every choice I make is right just because I made it. We're human beings, we make mistakes. And we can't take abortion back once it's done. As a woman, I want to be equal, not have the power over life and death.

I agree with the first half of that and a lot of the sentiment in the second half, but just not the practice. You have already made your moral choice, but it isn't right to take that away from other women. I was adopted in 1974 when abortion was legal so this topic is a very sensitive one to me. Most civilized countries keep it legal. I because banning abortion will create more safety issues than if not. That is not to say that our crass, entitled, fast-food, on-demand American culture makes an informed choice. That's where the work really needs to be done. I really do think that women should be provided with all the facts, but never ever the way extreme pro-lifers do it. Scare tactics, shame and judgment are never appropriate tools. None of us should be tinkering i the private lives of these women other than to support them if they ask for help.

Again, I've been educated about it and do not agree with that choice, but I really don't agree with those who would take away a woman's right over her body. That seems to be the sentiment of most Americans. See, this is a no-win conversation because pro-lifers are never going to give into an inch of choice and pro-choicers aren't going to relinquish control because it sets a very dangerous precedent. The best the pro-life bunch can really do is support women in crisis in our communities and help them out rather than casting blanket moral judgment from on high over the private lives of others through legislation and rhetoric. I support that 100%. Again, we're a fast food culture so all that takes getting off one's butt rather than casting a vote for the most charismatic social conservative at the ballet box who favors big government control of families, but won't fund a dime to actually help them in the ways they really need it. It's just so much easier to complain.

I just despise how a thread about gays and Christians continually gets into the topic of Middle Eastern war and abortion.

 

[beaker]

We've seen what happens when abortion is illegal...if pro lifers think the pro choice option is grotesque...they should see what happens when a cottage black market/quasi black market industry springs up(such as the horrific incident discovered by cops in a West Philly raid last year)

And fast food culture is right...sadly the socio-economic divide continues to grow; yet people are too wrapped up in their ADHD smart phone twitter reality show culture to notice. And politicians often do not really address(much less want to tackle) the real root of why so many abortion clinics are in poor areas(lack of health care for OBGYN care, and the cyclical nature underwriting poverty)

 

[beaker]

Also, if these GOP Republicans are really Christians, how come they never talk about environmental issues? All I hear is environmentalism is for the liberals, "climate change is a hoax". I mean just today "the oceans are dying": http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43479398/ns/world_news-world_environment/ Maybe they think showing any concern for the planet is "pagan" or something.

 

[frogboy4]

Also, if these GOP Republicans are really Christians, how come they never talk about environmental issues? All I hear is environmentalism is for the liberals, "climate change is a hoax". I mean just today "the oceans are dying": http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43479398/ns/world_news-world_environment/ Maybe they think showing any concern for the planet is "pagan" or something.

There are some Christian groups who are finally realizing that and trying to detour from the Fox News stance of denial. If the icecaps melted today and we all were floating around in our cars Sean Hannity would probably find a way to blame Obama's health care plan rather than global warming.

 

[beaker]

Well it occurs to me, most the causes "liberals" support(peace, helping the needy, social programs, environmentalism, etc) are extremely Christian if we're talking early Christ cult period(Christ cult, as in the time of the very early followers/pre Roman co-option of Christianity) I don't think a lot of otherwise good meaning American Christians realize that the Republicans they've been suckered into following are the very type of greedy corporate snake oil salesman Jesus would have opposed(according to the story of Christ in the Biblical teachings)

 

[CensoredAlso]

You have already made your moral choice, but it isn't right to take that away from other women.

It's right when there's another life in the picture that is being snuffed out.

Plus look at it this way. You want the government to legalize gay marriage, even though many people will disagree with that. You want your view to win over their's. There's nothing wrong with that. And by the same token, pro lifers have the right to want their view to prevail.

The best the pro-life bunch can really do is support women in crisis in our communities and help them out

And many pro life organizations do just that; I've even contributed to them.

I don't think a lot of otherwise good meaning American Christians realize that the Republicans they've been suckered into following are the very type of greedy corporate snake oil salesman Jesus would have opposed(according to the story of Christ in the Biblical teachings)

Sadly I agree. Going along with the Republicans is not all that different than thinking the corrupt Pharisees had all the answers.

And by the same token, the Democrat politicans claim to be liberals, yet they support the oppression of human beings at the early stages of life. And again, they ignore the part that poverty is playing in this issue.

Go figure, both parties have a lot of hypocrisy.

 

[RedPiggy]

Plus look at it this way. You want the government to legalize gay marriage, even though many people will disagree with that. You want your view to win over their's. There's nothing wrong with that. And by the same token, pro lifers have the right to want their view to prevail.

You're trying to argue it is the same thing, and in a way, you're right. However, both things are IRRELEVANT to anyone who does NOT do them. It's easier to NOT drive when the option is available than to do it when the option's not legal.
Some people view their pets as children (I know it's probably as close as I'M going to get). Let's say someone more hardcore about it than I am decides it should be illegal to have pets (PETA, for instance) or that pets should only be purchased if you can give them lots of treats, expert medical care, and a spot on your bed. You know, because "animals are people too". Would someone who treats animals as, well, like animals (not that I mind those who use animals for work purposes, since we humans have "employees" too) want to be told they're ruining "sacred" lives?
It's one thing to argue against an issue and think you're right. It's another to realize someone is probably saying the same stuff about what YOU like.

And by the same token, the Democrat politicans claim to be liberals, yet they support the oppression of human beings at the early stages of life.

I can't speak for all pro-choicers, but it's trying to STOP oppression that we acknowledge this as an option. If a person can't take care of a baby and grow it into a productive adult ... that person should not be dumping that problem on us ... AND the kid.
To continue the pet metaphor, my brother and I are told occasionally at the dog park that it's silly we try to keep someone at home to watch the dogs, since that's what crates are for. I'm like, "If you are just going to crate it for 8-12 hours a day, what on earth did you get it for? Do your pet a favor, get it out of your house, and buy a stuffed toy instead."