What if the New Muppet Movie's Villain had a Muppet Sidekick?

[minor muppetz]

Even with a Muppet sidekick somehow it just reminds me of Elmo in Grouchland and that little bug that helped the villain.

The difference is that the bug villian wasn't really too evil. What I had in mind was an existing character (or a ficticious obscure character) who was the most affected by the Muppets splitting up and joined the villian out of spite. Or maybe joined the villian before the Muppets started to get back together and refused to get back with the others. Though if any existing character does join the villian I would expect him or her to turn good by the end.

Muppet Treasure Island had several Muppet henchmen, as did The Great Santa Claus Switch (with Lothar pretty much being a sidekick).

But I guess what I've been thinking is inspired a bit by a character in Rudolph and Frosty's Christmas in July. In that special there was a reindeer character who had been unemployed from helping Santa because of Rudolph, and chose to join the villian out of spite. Of course this character didn't get redeemed by the end of the special (I don't think he recieved any consequences for his bad deeds, either).

 

[CensoredAlso]

What I had in mind was an existing character (or a ficticious obscure character) who was the most affected by the Muppets splitting up and joined the villian out of spite. Or maybe joined the villian before the Muppets started to get back together and refused to get back with the others. Though if any existing character does join the villian I would expect him or her to turn good by the end.

Oh yeah that would be cool, I always like those. Much more interesting than the standard good guy that never makes mistakes.

 

[Drtooth]

The difference is that the bug villian wasn't really too evil. What I had in mind was an existing character (or a ficticious obscure character) who was the most affected by the Muppets splitting up and joined the villian out of spite. Or maybe joined the villian before the Muppets started to get back together and refused to get back with the others. Though if any existing character does join the villian I would expect him or her to turn good by the end.

Muppet Treasure Island had several Muppet henchmen, as did The Great Santa Claus Switch (with Lothar pretty much being a sidekick)

For the most part, evil sidekicks are usually not all that evil, and a good number of them wind up joining the good guys. Like Iago in Aladdin, or like Max and the bug in their respective Muppet films. I see a Muppet movie having that kind of sidekick villain. One that starts to disagree with the extremes of the main villain and starts getting sympathetic of the good guys... again, much like Max. But then again, cliches are cliches for a reason.

 

[CensoredAlso]

For the most part, evil sidekicks are usually not all that evil, and a good number of them wind up joining the good guys. Like Iago in Aladdin, or like Max and the bug in their respective Muppet films. I see a Muppet movie having that kind of sidekick villain. One that starts to disagree with the extremes of the main villain and starts getting sympathetic of the good guys... again, much like Max. But then again, cliches are cliches for a reason.

Yeah it's a cliche, but it's still a welcome one, lol. Even my film teacher said character conversion is a popular and effective way of making the plot go forward.

 

[beaker]

I'm torn on this. I don't think it's completely wrong to use Pepe in this film, but then again this is supposed to be recapturing the spirit of the original Muppet films, which were successful, unlike their later projects. So if they're going to use Pepe, it makes sense for him to be eased into it, and then see how he can work going forward.

The Muppets haven't had a truly blockbuster film since the early 1990s. If they're going to make a comeback, they do need to keep in mind what brought them success in the first place.

See, I don't get why people have been erasing Pepe from their minds. Roger did this with the Muppet show, and clearly some of those issues take place in the modern time.

I think it's really Segal and other's lack of post JH knowledge; so they may not even be aware of Pepe. Pepe is one of the main Muppet characters whether people like him or not. Removing him or giving him a small role would be a bad move and feel out of place. Now I understand people's frustration with Scooter and Rowlf being left behind for non existent roles.

Unless this was a remake of the original film, I see no reason why Pepe shouldnt be one of the main characters. Especially since its a meta-canon-fictional plot acknowledging all past Muppet work.

Heheh, I could totally see a Muppet from a failed show, whether it be JHH or MT, (temporarily) joining the villain as revenge for a failed part of the dream. I agree with Drtooth ... Pepe's already tried that, but his heart is too good to go back to it.

Speaking of which, I wonder if Rowlf will reference being out of work/having a hard time finding work. He did that recently in an episode of Muppets Kitchen.

 

[beaker]

The difference is that the bug villian wasn't really too evil. What I had in mind was an existing character (or a ficticious obscure character) who was the most affected by the Muppets splitting up and joined the villian out of spite. Or maybe joined the villian before the Muppets started to get back together and refused to get back with the others. Though if any existing character does join the villian I would expect him or her to turn good by the end.

Muppet Treasure Island had several Muppet henchmen, as did The Great Santa Claus Switch (with Lothar pretty much being a sidekick).

But I guess what I've been thinking is inspired a bit by a character in Rudolph and Frosty's Christmas in July. In that special there was a reindeer character who had been unemployed from helping Santa because of Rudolph, and chose to join the villian out of spite. Of course this character didn't get redeemed by the end of the special (I don't think he recieved any consequences for his bad deeds, either).

You know, I was thinking...a really good evil sidekick would be a Creature Shop design, something Skeksis-like. Put a Skeksis in a suit and tie, perfect! I just saw Chris Cooper in the Company Men, and I loved him in Adaptation. I've no doubt he'll make a great bad guy.

For the most part, evil sidekicks are usually not all that evil, and a good number of them wind up joining the good guys. Like Iago in Aladdin, or like Max and the bug in their respective Muppet films. I see a Muppet movie having that kind of sidekick villain. One that starts to disagree with the extremes of the main villain and starts getting sympathetic of the good guys... again, much like Max. But then again, cliches are cliches for a reason.

The second in command to the bad guy helping the good guys at the last minute/growing a conscience is part of many many films, cartoons, anime, etc. Heck even the original Star Wars trilogy used that device.

 

[CensoredAlso]

See, I don't get why people have been erasing Pepe from their minds. I think it's really Segal and other's lack of post JH knowledge; so they may not even be aware of Pepe.

I think when it comes down to it the JH-era Muppets and the Post JH-era Muppets are very different in a lot of ways, and their respective fans aren't always going to agree. I'd be more worried if Segal lacked knowledge of the Jim Henson era.

I do think Pepe is funny at times and has potential. But other times the jokes he was given just weren't called for and would never have been on the original Muppet Show. Though again I don't blame just that one character. And I didn't say he should just disapear forever or anything. More like a back to the drawing board kind of thing. That's part of what this movie is trying to do, figure out what will work when previous projects haven't.

 

[beaker]

I think when it comes down to it the JH-era Muppets and the Post JH-era Muppets are very different in a lot of ways, and their respective fans aren't always going to agree. I'd be more worried if Segal lacked knowledge of the Jim Henson era.

I do think Pepe is funny at times and has potential. But other times the jokes he was given just weren't called for and would never have been on the original Muppet Show. Though again I don't blame just that one character. And I didn't say he should just disapear forever or anything. More like a back to the drawing board kind of thing. That's part of what this movie is trying to do, figure out what will work when previous projects haven't.

The film's central theme and plot is about how the public at large has turned their back on the Muppets. Although it won't say it directly, it's pretty much about how the public thinks the Muppets died with Jim Henson, and has been a lost cause nostalgia trip that's long had it's day.

In the 80's and 90's, least merchandise wise, the Muppets main 5 core was "Kermit, Piggy, Gonzo, Fozzie and Animal". Rizzo got tagged onto their, but in the last decade the core changed to include Pepe. In some ways Pepe was seen to replace Animal as number 5.

I personally can't see how "classic fans"(ie: those stuck in the TMS/original movie era) can even consider themselves real Muppet fans. I completely understand the whole classic trilogy SW fans vs new trilogy/clone wars. But there's been such an immense wealth of post JHH Muppety goodness(which includes Pepe), that for "classic fans" to turn their back on it...well, they're missing out. The Youtube videos, Muppets.com, the Disney Give A Day commercials...a treasure trove of amazing stuff. So to not include Pepe under the auspices of "keeping it old school" to me doesn't fly, as the film's spirit is very much in a post Apatow modern era sort of way.

 

[CensoredAlso]

The film's central theme and plot is about how the public at large has turned their back on the Muppets. Although it won't say it directly, it's pretty much about how the public thinks the Muppets died with Jim Henson, and has been a lost cause nostalgia trip that's long had it's day.

Well that's your interpretation of their theme. The movie hasn't even come out yet. Another interpretation is that the public noticed that the movies and projects in the 1990s weren't what they should have been.

I personally can't see how "classic fans"(ie: those stuck in the TMS/original movie era) can even consider themselves real Muppet fans.

Recognizing quality entertainment that was hugely successful and has stood the test of time is considered being "stuck?" If that's being stuck, I wouldn't want to be let out.

But there's been such an immense wealth of post JHH Muppety goodness(which includes Pepe), that for "classic fans" to turn their back on it...well, they're missing out.

That's your opinion and that's fine. That doesn't mean fans who don't like what you like are wrong. I certainly don't tell fans of post Henson Muppets that they aren't "real fans." It's just a different viewpoint. Something the Muppets deal with all the time.

Kermit didn't like every skit that say Gonzo or Fozzie did on Muppet Show, does that mean he didn't really support the show or his friends?

 

[frogboy4]

Well that's your interpretation of their theme. The movie hasn't even come out yet. Another interpretation is that the public noticed that the movies and projects in the 1990s weren't what they should have been.



Recognizing quality entertainment that was hugely successful and has stood the test of time is considered being "stuck?" If that's being stuck, I wouldn't want to be let out.



That's your opinion and that's fine. That doesn't mean fans who don't like what you like are wrong. I certainly don't tell fans of post Henson Muppets that they aren't "real fans." It's just a different viewpoint. Something the Muppets deal with all the time.

Kermit didn't like every skit that say Gonzo or Fozzie did on Muppet Show, does that mean he didn't really support the show or his friends?

I see what both of you are saying. Personally, I see this as a simplistic framework that basically reflects the Muppet franchise falling into disrepair and most everyone has forgotten the magic they had. The reason doesn't have to be a clear one, but we all take our own guesses to the table. I wonder if they'll make a nod to Jim Henson. I think the use of Henson Studios demonstrates how the Henson Company is game for such homage. I mean, it's a froggin' Kermit movie for froggin' sakes!