What if the New Muppet Movie's Villain had a Muppet Sidekick?

[CensoredAlso]

I see what both of you are saying. Personally, I see this as a simplistic framework that basically reflects the Muppet franchise falling into disrepair and most everyone has forgotten the magic they had. The reason doesn't have to be a clear one, but we all take our own guesses to the table.

You're right, the basic idea is that the public needs reminding.

I wonder if they'll make a nod to Jim Henson. I think the use of Henson Studios demonstrates how the Henson Company is game for such homage. I mean, it's a froggin' Kermit movie for froggin' sakes!

You know that's a good point, will be interesting to see how that ends up!

 

[minor muppetz]

The film's central theme and plot is about how the public at large has turned their back on the Muppets.

Are you sure? Because I've never seen any reports that the movie is about the public turning their back on the Muppets. I've taken it that the Muppets just break up as a group, like how a music group or band might break up.

Now that I think of it, I wonder if Pepe might be treated here like Rizzo was in It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie and The Muppets Wizard of Oz. In those, Rizzo's role was more like it was during the 1980s, before he became part of the main 6. In It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie it was most likely due to Kermit finally having a starring role in a Muppet movie again and Steve Whitmire being busier with Kermit than he had in the majority of 1990s productions. In the case of The Muppets' Wizard of Oz Rizzo's role seemed more like it was in The Muppets Take Manhattan, though that's more because he was chosen to be the leader of the Munchkins and the Munchkins didn't really have a big part in the original story.

So I guess it's possible that Pepe will be treated more like he was on Muppets Tonight, a major character but not part of the main group (though I do consider him one of the main new characters on that show, but there were plenty of episodes without him).

 

[beaker]

I see what both of you are saying. Personally, I see this as a simplistic framework that basically reflects the Muppet franchise falling into disrepair and most everyone has forgotten the magic they had. The reason doesn't have to be a clear one, but we all take our own guesses to the table. I wonder if they'll make a nod to Jim Henson. I think the use of Henson Studios demonstrates how the Henson Company is game for such homage. I mean, it's a froggin' Kermit movie for froggin' sakes!

Well I didn't mean disrespect to fans more rooted in the "classic" stuff(TMS and the original movies) or what I call "purely BJHD" rooted(pre jim henson's death) There are those that seem to emphasize how the Muppets died creatively in 1990. And it's true, the Muppets did seem to flounder a bit, and seemed in perpetual development heck in the entire 90's and a lot of the 2000's.

But I just feel there's this sentiment of people equating Pepe with the annoyance and ubiquity of Elmo, and wanting to erase him to "restore" a classic feeling. Least that's the feeling I get from reading comments on movie news sites and some people's posts. I just wonder if there's anything post 1990 that "classic fans" like?

Are you sure? Because I've never seen any reports that the movie is about the public turning their back on the Muppets. I've taken it that the Muppets just break up as a group, like how a music group or band might break up.

Now that I think of it, I wonder if Pepe might be treated here like Rizzo was in It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie and The Muppets Wizard of Oz. In those, Rizzo's role was more like it was during the 1980s, before he became part of the main 6. In It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie it was most likely due to Kermit finally having a starring role in a Muppet movie again and Steve Whitmire being busier with Kermit than he had in the majority of 1990s productions. In the case of The Muppets' Wizard of Oz Rizzo's role seemed more like it was in The Muppets Take Manhattan, though that's more because he was chosen to be the leader of the Munchkins and the Munchkins didn't really have a big part in the original story.

So I guess it's possible that Pepe will be treated more like he was on Muppets Tonight, a major character but not part of the main group (though I do consider him one of the main new characters on that show, but there were plenty of episodes without him).

It's possible. None of the promo photos/set photos or anything about the movie mentions Pepe(again, which is odd as for 12 years management has gone out of their way to make Pepe one of the main Muppets)

When you saw the images of Henson Hollywood Studios converted for this movie, what sentiment did you get? I got the feeling that they're borrowing from the real life public view that the Muppets kind of are has-beens and aren't exactly the hottest properties. And this Walter character wants to undo that. To me that seems like one of the main thrusts of the movie.

 

[Drtooth]

But I just feel there's this sentiment of people equating Pepe with the annoyance and ubiquity of Elmo, and wanting to erase him to "restore" a classic feeling. Least that's the feeling I get from reading comments on movie news sites and some people's posts. I just wonder if there's anything post 1990 that "classic fans" like?

I WISH he had the ubiquity of Elmo... what do we have, 2 action figures (one's a variant), a push puppet, a regional Fast Food toy, and an unwinnable carnival plush... maybe some shirts and stuff with his face on it. Elmo? Well, let's just say this... they JUST started marketing characters besides Elmo, Ernie, and Cookie Monster.

I demand a Pepe plush, dagnabbit!

 

[minor muppetz]

When you saw the images of Henson Hollywood Studios converted for this movie, what sentiment did you get? I got the feeling that they're borrowing from the real life public view that the Muppets kind of are has-beens and aren't exactly the hottest properties. And this Walter character wants to undo that. To me that seems like one of the main thrusts of the movie.

I knew the plot invovled the Muppets needing to get back together before seeing those photos, but never once thought the Muppets split up because of the public interest going down. When I saw those photos I actually thought there was some sort of fire in the studio.

I WISH he had the ubiquity of Elmo... what do we have, 2 action figures (one's a variant), a push puppet, a regional Fast Food toy, and an unwinnable carnival plush... maybe some shirts and stuff with his face on it.

I remember when Muppets From Space came out fans were begging for Pepe merchandise, and I think Henson was aware (a question about it was posted in the henson.com FAQ, and they said "There's no Pepe toys... Yet." And before Palisades got the movies license it was reported that Henson considered letting Pepe be included despite not beign from The Muppet Show). And of course when MFS came out pretty much everybody praised Pepe (the fans, the critics those who otherwise disliked the movie). It's a shame we didn't get much MFS merchandise. Wendy's and S'barro (and I think the UK Burger King) had merchandise, but hardly any character toys (Wendy's had a Kermit plush keychain and a Gonzo toy vehicle, while S'barro had some sort of projectors based around Kermit, Fozzie, Piggy, Gonzo, Rizzo, and Animal).

I wonder if the lack of Pepe merchandise from when MFS was released was due to the movie's poor box office performance. Those who saw the movie liked him, but many didn't see the movie in theaters. Despite him stealing that show Henson may not have thought so in advance. It's especially a shame that the fast food promotions didn't include any Pepe toys, as I don't think customers get to pick who they get in their kids meals.

 

[Drtooth]

I wonder if the lack of Pepe merchandise from when MFS was released was due to the movie's poor box office performance. Those who saw the movie liked him, but many didn't see the movie in theaters. Despite him stealing that show Henson may not have thought so in advance. It's especially a shame that the fast food promotions didn't include any Pepe toys, as I don't think customers get to pick who they get in their kids meals.

Well, I'd say it's more of being both a new character and of course, the fact they only made stuff with Kermit, Piggy, Animal and maybe Gonzo or Fozzie for years.

The second in command to the bad guy helping the good guys at the last minute/growing a conscience is part of many many films, cartoons, anime, etc. Heck even the original Star Wars trilogy used that device.

Again, cliches are cliches for a reason. But I'm torn. it would definitely work, but would it be too similar to TMM or VMX...

I personally can't see how "classic fans"(ie: those stuck in the TMS/original movie era) can even consider themselves real Muppet fans. I completely understand the whole classic trilogy SW fans vs new trilogy/clone wars. But there's been such an immense wealth of post JHH Muppety goodness(which includes Pepe), that for "classic fans" to turn their back on it...well, they're missing out. The Youtube videos, Muppets.com, the Disney Give A Day commercials...a treasure trove of amazing stuff. So to not include Pepe under the auspices of "keeping it old school" to me doesn't fly, as the film's spirit is very much in a post Apatow modern era sort of way.

The problem with old franchises and new projects is a long standing history of problems. The way I see it, there have been some crappy reboots that annoy fanbases (Underdog for example... I'm NEVER going to let that go), and ones that are well done BUT because of all the terrible ones, fans just denounce them without actually giving them a chance. How are we to tell if something's going to be a worthwhile venture that's done with a LOT of care when we've got a lot of cheaply done "T-Shirt nostalgia" to get people who don't care about the franchise into the seats.

Muppet projects post Henson have been hit or miss, YET, no one remembers the flops and uneven stuff made UNDER Henson. Like those Play Along videos and the terrible crop of video games. I can tick off the long list of problems with the new movies, but I've done that too many times. What WAS missing without Jim was the leadership and conviction that comes with picking strong projects and strong people to work on them. That said, MCC and MTI were well written, but they lacked the core characters (especially MCC).... where as MT had a delicate balance of old and new characters. Plus, the writers had a tough time figuring out what MT was exactly. When the skits were strong, they were very strong... but there was a lot of stuff that was just unfunny, long, and directionless too. And the format... a chat skit show?

But then again, JHH, some of the best work of the decade, was completely underrated and NBC pretended it was on another channel.

Again, I can't get excited enough for this movie, and Disney's been pretty good to them so far. Instead of bouncing from studio to studio with different (and usually indifferent) managements, we have a nice clear focus.

 

[minor muppetz]

Well, I'd say it's more of being both a new character and of course, the fact they only made stuff with Kermit, Piggy, Animal and maybe Gonzo or Fozzie for years.

But around that time (maybe it started a year later) Igel was releasing dolls of many supporting characters including Statler, Waldorf, Bunsen, Beaker, and The Swedish Chef. Though those were released in Germany as opposed to North America.

How are we to tell if something's going to be a worthwhile venture that's done with a LOT of care when we've got a lot of cheaply done "T-Shirt nostalgia" to get people who don't care about the franchise into the seats.

You know, I don't think we've gotten any Muppet "T-shirt nostalgia". I have a Sesame Street shirt with many pre-1993 characters (which looks like it could have been designed in the 1980s), and a number of Sesame Street shirts featuring retro-style artwork, and maybe a Roosevelt Franklin shirt (I really can't remember if I actuallys aw one or if my min dis playing tricks on me). But other than that I haven't seen any Muppet or Sesame Street t-shirts that represent classic scenes or lines. A "Mahna Mahna" t-shirt would be very cool. So would a Beauregard "What color are their hands now?" t-shirt.

Muppet projects post Henson have been hit or miss, YET, no one remembers the flops and uneven stuff made UNDER Henson. Like those Play Along videos and the terrible crop of video games.

Hey I liked the Play-Along Videos, though I haven't seen them in a long time (aside from watching some clips on YouTube).

 

[beaker]

Well, I'd say it's more of being both a new character and of course, the fact they only made stuff with Kermit, Piggy, Animal and maybe Gonzo or Fozzie for years.



Again, cliches are cliches for a reason. But I'm torn. it would definitely work, but would it be too similar to TMM or VMX...



The problem with old franchises and new projects is a long standing history of problems. The way I see it, there have been some crappy reboots that annoy fanbases (Underdog for example... I'm NEVER going to let that go), and ones that are well done BUT because of all the terrible ones, fans just denounce them without actually giving them a chance. How are we to tell if something's going to be a worthwhile venture that's done with a LOT of care when we've got a lot of cheaply done "T-Shirt nostalgia" to get people who don't care about the franchise into the seats.

Muppet projects post Henson have been hit or miss, YET, no one remembers the flops and uneven stuff made UNDER Henson. Like those Play Along videos and the terrible crop of video games. I can tick off the long list of problems with the new movies, but I've done that too many times. What WAS missing without Jim was the leadership and conviction that comes with picking strong projects and strong people to work on them. That said, MCC and MTI were well written, but they lacked the core characters (especially MCC).... where as MT had a delicate balance of old and new characters. Plus, the writers had a tough time figuring out what MT was exactly. When the skits were strong, they were very strong... but there was a lot of stuff that was just unfunny, long, and directionless too. And the format... a chat skit show?

But then again, JHH, some of the best work of the decade, was completely underrated and NBC pretended it was on another channel.

Again, I can't get excited enough for this movie, and Disney's been pretty good to them so far. Instead of bouncing from studio to studio with different (and usually indifferent) managements, we have a nice clear focus.

In an odd way I kind of like both the 1988 and 1993 play along videos. JHC was definitely trying to find their webbing during that 93' period. Oddly, I think some of the best Muppet productions were in the final years of Henson's life.

Pepe merchandise(as far as toys), there was the several sized(and quite ugly imho) Nanco midway plushes. There was the diecast nascar car. And figure wise the Pepe with variants by palisades, the 2003 Jack in the Box action figure, and the 2003 collapsable "3d figure". And that's about it.

Give the insane amount of detail and love we're seeing put into the Muppet film, it looks like theyve rebuild a large portion of old and obscure characters. Which means maybe we'll get some merch or toys of characters we never would have imagined.

I mean, growing up as a Muppet obsessed child, I never thought I'd have figures of Thog, Doglion, Mahna Mahna and the snowths, Pops, Koozebane playset and inhabitants, etc. Hopefully Disney will dig into the obscure pile again

But Dr Tooth...Ive seen phases of what lincecees are willing to put out. Toy and merch wise, it was ALL about Kermit, Piggy, Gonzo, Fozzie and Animal from the mid 1980's all the way til the early 2000's. Maybe a few Rizzo things, but that was it.

But in 2003 and 2004 we saw, albiet briefly, a slight focus on Beaker, Swedish Chef, Bunsen, etc. I have literally about a dozen different Beaker plushes all from different companies around the world, same with Chef. I also have some pretty cool Beaker shirts that flew under the radar. Sababa gave us plushes of Statler, Waldorf, the Electric Mayhem band, Chef, Beaker, Bunsen, etc. Such a wonderful merch time was 2002-2004.

 

[minor muppetz]

Well, today's Muppet Mindset article points out an article or interview or something where Chris Cooper confirms that the villian WILL have a Muppet sidekick. He described it as being "A blue dragon-like character", which I'm sure will be Uncle Deadley, but I guess we won't know until the movie comes out, press releases refer to Uncle Deadley as the sidekick, or we see images of a new character that fits that description. Or we get some other piece of evidence. The article mentions that Cooper refered to him as a new character, but it's possible he isn't familiar with Uncle Deadley (Jason Segal reportedly wasn't when Nick Stoller suggested using him).

 

[RedPiggy]

Actually, Uncle Deadly wouldn't surprise me. I can imagine Team Walter finding the run-down Muppet Studios, and UD is there haunting the place, irritated that people forgot how awesome he was. He gets manipulated by Bad Guy to turn against the Muppets who let him be forgotten, but realizes at the end he's on the wrong side and pulls a Pepe on Bad Guy somehow.