The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

I suppose CS Lewis has that baby & the bathwater sort of mindset that was being discussed earlier. Even though I enjoy the work of many artists, I don't necessarily endorse everything about them or their beliefs. Otherwise I'd have to excommunicate Prince, Woody Allen Michael Jackson, Kirstie Alley, Joan Rivers, Marylin Manson and many other entertaining individuals along with Mr. Lewis and that would be a shame.

I personally find that sort of fundamentalist thinking dangerous, but I'm okay with someone believing that as long as it isn't enforced on others. There's another recent attack on television program GLEE for "glamorizing" gays and I think that sort of charge is as ludicrous as it is disgusting. Everyone has a right to be represented in the media and it's now our turn for a little while. Portraying the challenges and issues of being gay in high school without having to battle some fire and brimstone lecture from on high is a good thing that shows how much we've progressed in this country in the ways of tolerance and acceptance of those who are different.

It is my hope that young people growing up won't feel that their wings are going to be inherently clipped just because they are gay and that they'll be able to pursue all the same opportunities this country has to offer any other person. To think otherwise, no matter where the sentiment comes from, is bigotry. Plain and simple.

This country has been celebrating over the past couple of days and I'm glad we have some sort of closure, but we all treat hatred as though its some external force that can be eliminated. Hatred lives inside all of us and everyday is an opportunity to change that within ourselves (no matter what spiritual or practical process we use to facilitate that change). One does not have to be an Atheist or Christian to reach a place of love and understanding toward other people.

 

[CensoredAlso]

This country has been celebrating over the past couple of days and I'm glad we have some sort of closure

You're referring to Bin Laden I assume? Well, :: the way I see it, he did need to be stopped. He was dangerous both to the US and to his own people, and it wasn't going to get better. So I can't speak out against that. But I won't go around celebrating a death. "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." After all, they are the ones who need it the most.

 

[frogboy4]

You're referring to Bin Laden I assume? Well, :: the way I see it, he did need to be stopped. He was dangerous both to the US and to his own people, and it wasn't going to get better. So I can't speak out against that. But I won't go around celebrating a death. "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." After all, they are the ones who need it the most.

Exactly. And of course I'm pleased for this closure. The point remains that hatred and evil do not reside as one outside entity or person. It's in all of us and we can only control our own hearts. When infamous bigot Jerry Falwell died there were many others just like him to assume his place and thousands more just like him who never voice their toxic prejudice out loud. It is also important for people like me to have tolerance for Christians, both small minded and the compassionate ones too. To not belittle their beliefs or keep them from pursuing their spiritual lives.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Exactly. And of course I'm pleased for this closure. The point remains that hatred and evil do not reside as one outside entity or person. It's in all of us and we can only control our own hearts.

Exactly, we can't help what other people do, we can only help what we do. And we should all be spending more time improving ourselves than pointing the finger at others.

Tolerance is very important; as civilized human beings we should be able to disagree yet still remain friends or at least civil with people. I think it's beautiful when people are able to do that, and I do see it all the time, despite how grim the world often looks.

Though of course, if we decide to have any kind of values in our lives, there are some things that we should not tolerate, such as Bin Laden's views and actions.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

Regarding Bin Laden, I'm glad that a murderer has been brought to justice, but I would rather have seen come to stand trial and given a formal sentence. I'm surprised the military wouldn't have captured him alive for possible information on further terrorist actions. But I suppose they did what they had to and what they were able to and that's how it worked out.
And while of course I deplore the things that he did, I still get sick seeing people parading at the White House and celebrating his death. I think of verses like Ezekiel 18:23 where God says He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked; He only wants them to turn from their evil ways and live. Likewise, I'd rather Bin Laden and those who would follow after him would turn from their evil ways and come to know Christ as Savior. And I pray that will happen.
Tolerance is a tricky word. If it is taken to mean what the dictionary defines it as, it can be a good thing. Too many times it seems to be taken out of context though. Tolerance is a good thing when it means that two people can disagree on things, but still respect each other's viewpoints and still share a bond of mutual friendship, respect and trust. And both people are free to do what they want to- which I believe is true. Everyone is free to choose their own destiny.
What I don't like is when people seem to think that tolerance means not only respecting other people's opinions and rights to them, but essentially forcing another party to also agree with them and give tacit approval. (For example- since this is the topic this thread was initially based on- if a gay couple chooses to marry in a state where it has been legalized- while there are some churches that might be willing to perform the ceremony (Metropolitan Community Church is the main one that comes to mind for me)- most Christian churches would refuse and they should not be forced to do something that goes against the definition of marriage as God lays out in The Bible.)
Of course, this is also how the "freedom of religion" part of the 1st. Amendment to the Constitution should work. The church is not dictating to the government to only allow one religion or such- and the government is not dictating to the church how they will be allowed to operate.

GonzoLeaper, can I ask, have you ever seen Jesus Christ Superstar or Godspell? Just curious.

I have been meaning to see "Jesus Christ Superstar" sometime- I have heard some things about it but have not watched it yet, except for some bits here and there.
However, I have seen "Godspell" and I like that pretty well. Of course, it's one of those productions that as a Christian, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to laugh at or be offended by it.
(Of course, both of these productions are still better I think than others like "The Last Temptation of Christ"- though that movie presented some interesting ideas too- and not all of them entirely unBiblical - Jesus was tempted in all things just as we all are- and yet He was without sin.)
Back to "Godspell" though- I wish it would have had a stronger emphasis on the Resurrection of Jesus (which they kinda relay in the closing credits)- and I do think some of it gets to be bordering on the sacreligious- but at the same time, it is really true to Gospel of Matthew in some regards and conveys Jesus' parables and His Sermon on the Mount really well. I give it credit for adapting The Bible to then-contemporary settings and presenting the Gospel in a fun and humourous way. I love the Superman shirt for Jesus- perfect metaphor. Not sure about the clown makeup and rainbow suspenders- but I suppose that was part of the hippie look they were going for. It has some incredible songs too- mainly "Day by Day", which DC Talk did a cover of some years later on their "Jesus Freak" album.
Day by day, oh, dear Lord- three things I pray- to see Thee more clearly, to love Thee more dearly, to follow Thee more nearly day by day!

 

[CensoredAlso]

And while of course I deplore the things that he did, I still get sick seeing people parading at the White House and celebrating his death.

Well I liked what someone on the Web said recently. Jesus said love thy enemy. It was unpopular back then and we still struggle with it even now...

What I don't like is when people seem to think that tolerance means not only respecting other people's opinions and rights to them, but essentially forcing another party to also agree with them and give tacit approval.

I agree, I think that's a tricky thing for everyone. Tolerance shouldn't mean giving up the right to fight for your own viewpoints. If we took that right away from others, it can just as easily be taken away from us.

To me, the ideal situation is my best friend and I standing on opposite ends of a protest, and then still going to dinner afteward, lol.

I have been meaning to see "Jesus Christ Superstar" sometime- I have heard some things about it but have not watched it yet, except for some bits here and there. However, I have seen "Godspell" and I like that pretty well. Of course, it's one of those productions that as a Christian, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to laugh at or be offended by it.

The way I see it, the shows tell the story of Jesus with a lot of respect and energy. I didn't find much to be offended by.

Back to "Godspell" though- I wish it would have had a stronger emphasis on the Resurrection of Jesus (which they kinda relay in the closing credits)- and I do think some of it gets to be bordering on the sacreligious

I've seen stage productions of Godspell that more directly address the resurrection so it just depends on what version you see. What did you find sacreligious though?

I love the Superman shirt for Jesus- perfect metaphor. Not sure about the clown makeup and rainbow suspenders- but I suppose that was part of the hippie look they were going for.

Well I believe the overall look of Godspell is more often described as "clown" than "hippie." That's what they were going for, a story of harmless, playful vibe. Jesus Christ Superstar was more hippie.

Day by day, oh, dear Lord- three things I pray- to see Thee more clearly, to love Thee more dearly, to follow Thee more nearly day by day!

Great song! And btw Victor Garber did an amazing job as Jesus in the Godspell movie. It's not easy playing that kind of role, a leader who expects respect from his followers, yet is not at all proud or haughty.

 

[frogboy4]

Gay Marriage and Church Ceremonies

No one forces the Catholic church to marry Mormon couples or any couple they find fault. That wouldn't ever change with the legalization of gay marriage. Of course there will always be frivolous lawsuits. That's the American way. But you don't prevent rights just because some ambulance chasers are looking for a payday. The idea of forced ceremonies is fraudulent propaganda perpetuated by political conservatives in order to scare God-fearing people into voting for them.

Bin Laden

I wasn't intending to get into this political development, but I'll clarify my position since we're talking about it. A trial, a photo or a gravestone would help solidify this terrorist's platform and fuel his base. That would stir-up greater danger than this recent, quieter conclusion. Leaving nothing behind castrates his cause. It also instills the idea that part of a movement is gone rather than the far more dangerous concept that a martyr has been born. I know some in his movement will still see it that way, but less-so than if we'd seen more actual coverage of the operation. I also know that some conspiracy theorists will use the lack of documentation to claim all sorts of things, but let's face it - we have pictures of the moon landing and they still don't believe that either. I'm not a fan of killing yet I'd have to admit that this has been handled the best way possible so far. Ultimately he wasn't on American soil, he was not an American and had no American rights. But reportedly he did have Pepsi! Nevertheless, the US didn't kill hatred, terrorism or evil. They killed a man who had been taken over by these things that live in everybody. Our problems are just the same as they were a week ago. Only our outlook is different and a cause has been crippled.

 

[CensoredAlso]

The idea of forced ceremonies is fraudulent propaganda perpetuated by political conservatives in order to scare God-fearing people into voting for them.

Yeah I doubt that would happen too. The Church would likely be left alone.

Well that's always the way. Political conservatives scaring its voters and Political liberals scaring their's. About all either of them are good for at this point.

I also know that some conspiracy theorists will used the lack of documentation to claim all sorts of things, but let's face it - we have pictures of the moon landing and they still don't believe that either.

Well it's not like this would be the first time our government has lied to us, lol. But for now, the simpler explanation (that Bin Laden was indeed shot) is more likely to be true.

About Bin Laden and Pepsi, yes that is the one way America has managed to convert people, through brand recognition!

 

[GonzoLeaper]

I've seen stage productions of Godspell that more directly address the resurrection so it just depends on what version you see. What did you find sacreligious though?

I guess it just didn't seem reverent enough to me. But others may not have any issue with it at all. And I've only seen the 1973 film version- and yes, Victor Garber did a great job in the role of Jesus.

Yeah I doubt that would happen too. The Church would likely be left alone.

Right- and as long as that's the case, I don't see that there would be a problem. I tend to look at it as not really a case of discrimation (although I know some will look at it as exactly that) but more a case of non-qualification. A gay couple does not meet the church's and Bible's definition of marriage. This is the same reason many Christian denominations do not have women as pastors, because they feel that it is not Scripturally correct. Some churches do and I know Scriptures used for either side. And sometimes it almost comes down to preferences- if you don't like this way of doing things, then there are plenty of other denominations and churches that may be more to your liking. And too many times, the Christian church gets too bogged down in rather silly things that don't really matter in terms of eternity.
And I'm getting off onto a whole other topic there, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I guess it just didn't seem reverent enough to me.

I guess that really comes down to personal preference. Godspell is actually considered about as Mickey Mouse as they come, hehe.

I did love all the shots of New York and how good they made it look, despite the turmoil the city was in at the time.

This is the same reason many Christian denominations do not have women as pastors, because they feel that it is not Scripturally correct....There are plenty of other denominations and churches that may be more to your liking.

See for me, I'd rather stay where I am and keeping pushing for the idea of women priests than just go to another denomation. In the end, you're never going to find a denomination that has nothing wrong with it.