The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

Can I ask a hypothetical question? Putting aside people's ways of delivering information (and I agree that there are many who don't do it in a good way and I'm sorry that you feel that I'm among that number - I don't necessarily want to offend or upset anyone- just trying to present what The Bible says)
But anyway- what I was trying to get to was- outside of what The Bible says about homosexuality, are there any other issues you have with believing what it says?
I hope I worded that well. I was just curious, if you're willing to talk about it- if you don't want to answer it, then don't bother- that's fine.

Hmmm. Well, since I’ve been asked about it there’s little in the Bible I do agree with aside from the general idea of personal renewal.

In no particular order, things like demons inhabiting animals and making them talk, painting independent knowledge-seeking as a bad idea, a person living inside of a large fish for days, the universe being created in 6 days, all the world’s species on taking a boat ride together for a month and a half without their eating one another or the crew, virgin birth, rising from the dead, widely condoned stoning in the old testament, the support for slavery, female subservience and other strict societal regulations that are out of place in this time are a few key items that I can think of off the top of my head that cannot easily be explained away without contrivance or excuses. All of this and more has led me to believe further scriptural study to be a fruitless waste of time. As mentioned, I was raised in this and did study it deeply for decades! It would be great to have all that time back!

I understand a simple “nothing is impossible with God” suffices most Christians, but not me and there’s enough strangeness in the text to create pause for any thinking person. That's where faith comes in. I know how easy it is to turn a blind eye to many inconsistencies having been exposed to scripture my entire life, but like other childhood ideas it no longer made sense to me no matter how much I researched. To be clear…that will not change. You asked about what parts bothered me about the Bible, but I do not wish to be converted. Any Christian would be perplexed by this information if it came from a source other than the Bible and that's the perspective non-Christians are coming from.

There’s one huge thing that Christians should keep in mind if they wish to successfully witness and that’s to resist the urge to proclaim scriptural quotes until somebody wants to hear the message and asks for more. There are polite ways of sharing and instigating a conversation, but quoting the Bible by verse and chapter to people is a huge turn-off to non-believers. I understand that it’s necessary down the line, but you’ve first got to have your foot in the door.

Wow! that is some strog words.

You know I have really tried to stay away from this thread, and so far I have but now I feel i should say something.
We all here have very differnt lives, past presemt anf future. Most of us want to have some form of religon based on God, and the Bible. I think a conversation like this could be great, but what I think should happen is a "Bible Study". We are talking about God and the Bible and we are getting things confused I feel. I propose that we start from the first of the book, and we each talk about what the passages mean to us. I mean isnt that what the word is there for. We could sit here and talk about homosexualtiy in the Bible till we turn blue in the face, but if we don't have a better understanding of the whole story, then we are talking in vain. The Bible can and has been used as a guide for people's lives, and I think that if we really started to studyit together we would see that deep down we all agree on a lot of the things we are aruging about.
So what do you all think, would you all like to start a "Bible Study" here? I would be more then happy to help with it, and I personaly think it would be helpful. Even if you have read the Bible through before, It would be interesting to hear others views on what the scripture is saying.

FROG, NO! This thread is unique and maybe that makes you uncomfortable. MC has a long reputation of cherrypicking such gay-themed threads for deletion and censorship while the Christian-centered ones have free rein. There are plenty of threads at Muppet Central that have studied the Bible and Biblical text. In other words - there are already places for what you've proposed.

What would work best is for you to provide a link in a post here for that sort of discussion somewhere else in another thread. This thread was never intended to be taken over by a Bible study and to think that everyone who disagrees with the Bible could be turned around by such a study is insulting. This thread was started by a member who thought that the two views could live side-by-side in tolerance without necessarily requiring people to change their beliefs or disprove gay people with Biblical scripture which is where I think you're going with this and I find that to be unfortunate, especially from a Muppet fan. Consider that many Muppet performers, writers and creators have been Jewish and of a wide variety of walks of life that fall outside the Christian view of life and "salvation" so why should Christianity take precedence here? I assure you gays, like in life, have quite the history of being treated poorly here on MC and this thread is about remedying that. It's about tolerance and not conversion of any sort.

I think it's also sad that you seem to believe rejection of your chosen point of view means that we don't comprehend it. That's been covered earlier here. It's why Christianity is seen as a condescending religion by so many people. I think we can all appreciate our differences without imposing them on one another in order to change. Mutual tolerance and equal opportunity for Christians and gay people to thrive in this country would be a fantastic feat because it doesn't require anyone changing their belief systems. Christians should always have the right to worship and have religious households and Gay people should be able to marry and live their lives as they see fit too. That was kind of the YouTube pitch proposed at the beginning of this thread and I wholeheartedly believe in that!

 

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It's sad because this sort of magical thinking has no bearing on the other wonderful realities of my life that I can't share with this family member and it deprives us of a deeper relationship. That's one of the toxic components of religion that separates people.

I'd say it's not so much religion that's toxic, but family relations. Anyone's family really, lol.

 

[frogboy4]

I'd say it's not so much religion that's toxic, but family relations. Anyone's family really, lol.

Religion, like anything, is merely a tool. The intent behind its use is what's important. It comes down to the intended goal. Sometimes, a lot of times, accepting someone else and living by example is just about all that can be done. This thoughtful, dare I say Jesus-like method is seldom taken.

Just a general statement not pointed at anyone in particular. Let's say I peppered all my statements on all topics of discussion with recitations from the Qur'an and didn't stop no matter how many people found it off-putting or uncomfortable to non-Muslims. My intention could be noble, but what does it serve? That's exactly how some Christians are perceived and eventually it becomes either sad or creepy.

Again, my intent is not to get anyone to agree with me - just to allow all people of all types to respectfully agree to disagree without treading on the rights of each other. Why my marrying a dude puts some Christian person's family in jeopardy is beyond me. Nonetheless many Christians believe that America will fall into a firey pit if we don't make everybody legally adhere to all Biblical decrees. That's the most dangerous thing of all.

 

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Nonetheless many Christians believe that America will fall into a firey pit if we don't make everybody legally adhere to all Biblical decrees. That's the most dangerous thing of all.

And I'll say there are also many Christians who don't feel that way. What's dangerous is for any group to get judged by the actions of some.

 

[frogboy4]

And I'll say there are also many Christians who don't feel that way. What's dangerous is for any group to get judged by the actions of some.

Exactly. However, it seems that far too many Christians remain silent when such issues arise and that creates the perception that they're perfectly okay with the extremists speaking for the whole. It's up to Christian individuals and their churches to improve their perception, but I guess too many of them don't care because they find comfort in being the religious majority of America.

That's how this thread started - one Christian firing back against the fringe creating such a negative perception.

 

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Exactly. However, it seems that far too many Christians remain silent when such issues arise and that creates the perception that they're perfectly okay with the extremists speaking for the whole. It's up to Christian individuals and their churches to improve their perception, but I guess too many of them don't care because they find comfort in being the religious majority of America.

OK a couple different responses I want to make:

I have known a couple of people who are very conservative that way, but they are friends and overall decent people and we've had polite (usually) disagreements on these topics, lol. I mean they don't think I should be a priest because I'm a woman. That bugs me and I tell them so, lol. But we still get along. People are more important than ideologies.

Others (who aren't friends) I honestly don't engage because they frighten me, heh. Same with extremist athiests I've encountered; it's bizzare how overzealous and angry people can get. These supposedly different groups deserve each other. Get some fresh air, people!

I went to a Catholic college that was actually rather liberal in many ways and even had a thriving Gay and Lesbian Alliance. And a lot of gay students participated in Mass services. Now I imagine the school did take some criticism for that, but that is one example of Christians who break the mold.

I do agree that overall the Churches do need to work on how they are perceived; there's a lot of obliviousness (is that a word)? Though there are different problems with different denominations. Remember there isn't just one Christian Church.

but I guess too many of them don't care because they find comfort in being the religious majority of America.

Again I say that's not about religion. With any controversial issue, if it's not affecting you, you tend not to think about it. Plus there's everyday concerns that take up people's minds like school, work, putting food on the table. It's human nature, regardless of religion or lack thereof.

 

[frogboy4]

OK a couple different responses I want to make:

I personally don't know that many people who are that extreme. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just speaking for myself. I don't see that a lot in my own daily life. I have known a couple of people who are very conservative that way, but they are friends and overall decent people and we've had polite (usually) disagreements on these topics, lol. Others (who aren't friends) I honestly don't engage because they frighten me, heh.

I went to a Catholic college that was actually rather liberal in many ways and even had a thriving Gay and Lesbian Alliance. And a lot of gay students participated in Mass services. Now I imagine the school did take some criticism for that, but that is one example of Christians who break the mold.

I do agree that overall the Churches do need to work on how they are perceived; there's a lot of obliviousness (is that a word)? Though there are different problems with different denominations. Remember there isn't just one Christian Church.



Again I say that's not about religion. With any controversial issue, if it's not affecting you, you tend not to think about it. Plus there's everyday concerns that take up people's minds like school, work, putting food on the table. It's human nature, regardless of religion or lack thereof.

That's all really cool, but it is up to every individual, especially those with a spiritual calling, to stick up for the oppressed when even the little things arise in daily life. I do that for a wide variety of things! The fact that most Americans consider themselves Christian and that I have rarely seen a Christian stick up for a gay person when hate-speech is thrown about is what requires remedy. Believe it or not, I stick up for Christians quite a bit even though I don't receive a fraction of reciprocated support.

 

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That's all really cool, but it is up to every individual, especially those with a spiritual calling, to stick up for the oppressed when even the little things arise in daily life.

Well, I don't want to get into it, but there are several oppressed groups that Christians stand up for that people who consider themselves liberal seem to ignore. And as a liberal myself I can't comprehend it. So there's plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

Sorry for the snarky, just wanted to put it out there. And I'm not trying to avoid anything; just saying we all have things we could improve upon.

Plus people are never going to be perfect, or exactly what you want. That doesn't mean no one is ever trying to do the right thing. Religious people often seem to get criticized for the crime of being human.

And I assure you there are plenty of people who have no religious affiliation yet often remain silent on issues. The problem is not religion. It's people, period.

The fact that most Americans consider themselves Christian and that I have rarely seen a Christian stick up for a gay person when hate-speech is thrown about is what requires remedy.

Well wait, I thought you said you didn't want to change people's minds, you just wanted them to leave your rights alone. This goes back to what I said a few days ago, if you want the rules to change, you do have to occasionally be intolerant of intolerance and demand that people understand you.

 

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1. Parables, no matter who’s using them, are useful to the extent that it develops a healthy attitude for theological exploration. However, as with any analogy, there are major flaws sometimes. For example, Jesus uses a lot of agrarian and royal imagery to discuss the Kingdom of God. However, when the king has to invite homeless people to his shindig, why does he kill the guy who came in without a tux (so to speak)? I mean, is the king so brain-dead that he didn’t know poor people don’t have good clothes? Wasn’t the compassionate and rational thing to do just giving the guy a rental? Has it ever occurred to the king that maybe his friends didn’t show up because they thought he was a major jerk? Or what about the story of the gardener and the seeds? Yes, I get that the seeds being planted are metaphors, but what idiot would put a seed on a sidewalk and expect that to work? Sometimes parables actually make God look far more incompetent than tradition holds if you continue to explore all the implications.

Well like you said, it's only an analogy, a metaphor. A parable is not meant to be a full fledged story that makes logical sense all around. Its only purpose is to deliver a particular message. To delve in it too deeply is the same as over analyzing a movie. "It's just a show, I should really just relax."

I can believe God’s relationship with us evolves because I can see the process itself in other areas of life.

That I absolutely agree with. I think I mentioned this before but that's where the Catholic idea of Tradition (captial "T") comes from. It doesn't mean "tradition" in the normal sense of the word. It means that we recognize that our interpretation of the Bible evolves as we evolve.

 

[frogboy4]

Well, I don't want to get into it, but there are several oppressed groups that Christians stand up for that people who consider themselves liberal seem to ignore. And as a liberal myself I can't comprehend it. So there's plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

Sorry for the snarky, just wanted to put it out there. And I'm not trying to avoid anything; just saying we all have things we could improve upon.

Plus people are never going to be perfect, or exactly what you want. That doesn't mean no one is ever trying to do the right thing. Religious people often seem to get criticized for the crime of being human.

And I assure you there are plenty of people who have no religious affiliation yet often remain silent on issues. The problem is not religion. It's people, period.



Well wait, I thought you said you didn't want to change people's minds, you just wanted them to leave your rights alone. This goes back to what I said a few days ago, if you want the rules to change, you do have to occasionally be intolerant of intolerance and demand that people understand you.

That's not quite what I said on several counts. There's quite a difference between changing a person's beliefs and standing up against hate-speech being thrown at somebody.

I still think self-proclaimed religious folk are called to set a higher standard. Fair, shmair. It's up to each individual to be the best representative they can be of their chosen faith. I'm just a gay dude. I have no higher calling other than one of basic humanity, yet in my personal relationships with people you'd see my behavior is quite Christian in nature.

On another note, I have a date tonight...kinda. Just happened and we're both in a very non-relationship mode so it's more of a friend date that will end in a polite hug. Yes, we gay folk can be traditional too! Even in this hotbed of hedonism.

My rambunctious days are past me even though i still seem like a person ten years younger (in both good ways and bad). The quality of people I hang around with is very important to me.