The Bible and Love and Christians

[CensoredAlso]

I believe that everyone has a right to state an opinion at their time of choosing, but the First Lady's always carries much weight. I wouldn't claim that Barbara or Laura set aside their opinions for their man. They merely set them aside out of respect for the elected official to whom they are married until they were out of office. I'm not sure if I support this practice, but it's certainly their right and it's very thoughtful of them.

I guess I just think too many people were quiet during the Iraq war, you know?

I just can't wait until we have the first First Gentleman. That will be interesting! I firmly believe a woman will be President in our lifetime.

It will be interesting indeed, though first I'd want our present two party system overhauled. No matter who is President, it will still be the same system.

Carter (while probably the best man we've had as President, but one of the worst actual Presidents)

I know that's very true, he's one of those people who has been a much better ex-President. And I mean that in a good way. Clinton embarrassed himself and the nation and frankly I was for impeachment, hehe.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

I don't want to get too big into politics here, but I will say that I respect Jimmy Carter for what he tried to do as President. He was unabashed about his Christianity and I appreciate that and I think he tried to do the best he could as President. Unfortunately, he didn't accomplish too much in that avenue, but I give him credit for trying with the SALT and START talks.
And I really, really like how he did his inauguration. He didn't take a limo and he didn't parade around or anything. He walked.
I read somewhere that he purposely did that in an effort to identify with the American people and to be humble about his position. I do respect that. And I definitely respect all the great work he's done with Habitat for Humanity. He certainly deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for that, which he got in 2002.
Anyway, I have the same policy about every President. All of them deserve respect because of the title they have because they have been elected President. I may not always like everything they do or agree with them on everything, but I do respect their position. I also pray for the President and the governor for that matter and those in authority as Romans 13 commands. God sets up those He wants in power and He takes them down as well. Thus, I do believe that everyone should exercise their right to vote and when it comes to voting, I just say to vote for whoever you think God wants you to vote for.
And ultimately, no matter who is elected, while I do pledge allegiance to the flag and to the Republic for which it stands as one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all- I ultimately pledge allegiance to Jesus because I'm a citizen of Heaven before being a citizen of any country on Earth. (Philippians 3:20)

 

[CensoredAlso]

You know I can see why Jesus didn't want to talk about politics. Why torture ourselves?

 

[GonzoLeaper]

Oh, Jesus dealt with politics. Matthew 22:15-22 is probably the most famous incident.
Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's.
But yeah- Jesus is above politics. He didn't come to start a political regime. He didn't come to transform the Roman government. He came to transform people's hearts and bring us salvation through His death and Resurrection.
John 10 says it well.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Oh, Jesus dealt with politics. Matthew 22:15-22 is probably the most famous incident.
Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's.
But yeah- Jesus is above politics. He didn't come to start a political regime. He didn't come to transform the Roman government. He came to transform people's hearts and bring us salvation through His death and Resurrection.
John 10 says it well.

Oh yeah I know about that incident, that's what I meant, how he was above politics. And you're right, there was a lot of expectations that he would be a war hero or political figure to stop the Romans. But Jesus knew there were always going to be regimes like the Romans. The most important thing is how you are as a person and how you treat your fellow human being. Plus I think it was Jesus' mission to eventually spread his word to all peoples, including the Romans, which did eventually happen. : )

 

[GonzoLeaper]

Plus I think it was Jesus' mission to eventually spread his word to all peoples, including the Romans, which did eventually happen. : )

Definitely- Jesus is for ALL people.

 

[beaker]

I honestly believe the "sin" regarding homosexuality as espoused in the scriptures is regarding the kind of behavior seen in say, late 70's New York City's gay scene. Even a lot of veteran gay rights activists will say that whole scene lead to a lot of early graves.

I'm with Frogboy in the belief that noone should be kept down for their beliefs. Again, in communist China we see both Christians and Buddhists rounded up and persecuted for believing in something other than an atheistic devotion to the state.
In some parts of the Islamic world, it's extremely dangerous to be either gay or Christian.

Now when you look at the gay people who want to marry, chances are a lot have been together for quite some time.
To me being gay is no more a sin than say, being born Hispanic or born left handed. Sexuality and gender preference can change, as is a lot of the cases with middle aged women who had been married. But a lot of times it's an identity that has always been there but has lay dormant.

What is immoral, and I would agree, is all the rampant drugs/violence/sleeping around/endless unwanted pregnancy we see in American culture. A whole generation of disaffected youth and various boredom/hopeless/cyclical social problems with nary a care in the world.

So I admire folks who have a belief in something and live by it. So many people seem aimless, and without any faith.

I think Christians may be starting to wrestle with what they were taught, versus the emerging reality. And that reality is that many people have a gay brother. A gay aunt. A gay parent.

If two people, be they both male, both female, or even transgendered/transsexual(meaning a female born in a male body or vice versa, or outside the gender binary) love each other and have a deep commitment to eachother...than I see know reason why God and Christ wouldn't be extremely happy. Because there would be a pure kind of energy with that, as opposed to two straight couples who are unhappy, or got married on a drunken whim.

Well now Former President George W. Bush's daughter Barbara has joined the thinking of Dick Cheney, Cindy McCain and Laura Bush for marriage equality. It makes one wonder who, aside from Karl Rove, agreed with W's anti-gay marriage stance in the first place. Well, at least this decision seemed all his own. Just interesting news today. We live in interesting times that are fast changing!

Most of the fiercest anti gay rights Republican politicians in Washington DC are closet homosexuals. Kind of a self hatred really

 

[beaker]

I don't want to get too big into politics here, but I will say that I respect Jimmy Carter for what he tried to do as President. He was unabashed about his Christianity and I appreciate that and I think he tried to do the best he could as President. Unfortunately, he didn't accomplish too much in that avenue, but I give him credit for trying with the SALT and START talks.
And I really, really like how he did his inauguration. He didn't take a limo and he didn't parade around or anything. He walked.
I read somewhere that he purposely did that in an effort to identify with the American people and to be humble about his position. I do respect that. And I definitely respect all the great work he's done with Habitat for Humanity. He certainly deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for that, which he got in 2002.
Anyway, I have the same policy about every President. All of them deserve respect because of the title they have because they have been elected President. I may not always like everything they do or agree with them on everything, but I do respect their position. I also pray for the President and the governor for that matter and those in authority as Romans 13 commands. God sets up those He wants in power and He takes them down as well. Thus, I do believe that everyone should exercise their right to vote and when it comes to voting, I just say to vote for whoever you think God wants you to vote for.
And ultimately, no matter who is elected, while I do pledge allegiance to the flag and to the Republic for which it stands as one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all- I ultimately pledge allegiance to Jesus because I'm a citizen of Heaven before being a citizen of any country on Earth. (Philippians 3:20)

After seeing the great documentary "A Man From Plains", I definitely have a new respect for Jimmy Carter. He seems like a real Christian to me. He helps build homes for people, speaks out on oppression(even when its politically harmful), helps out at his local church, etc. People malign him for all sorts of stuff, yet he was clearly sidelined by a number of circumstances.

Meanwhile, I see nothing Christian about Clinton, either of the Bushes, or other so called "Christian" presidents.

If I was a Christian, I would believe the government to be wicked, as are all governments. I would simply see them as all
figureheads to a devilish new world order structure that is oppressing humanity and creating chaos. Ok, I actually do believe that and am very saddened by how much destruction America and its allies have caused. I do not believe Christ would be too happy with America, nor Israel, nor these Islamic or Communist nations. I think they're all serving a much more darker agenda.

The thing with Romans 13, I just can't understand. That's why I support revolution, because when a government becomes tyranical(like Hitler and Nazi Germany), the people need to voice their opinion. I think that's why I have such a strong affinity for childish things, as it keeps me grounded from my more grown up
awareness of what is going on all over the world. Some very very dark times are descending upon the world, a time of unprecedented change...and I for one think it's good people have faith. It's just often times, "faith" is used to oppress other people's faith.

I apologize on behalf of my fellow agnostic/athiest liberals for demeaning Christians and reducing Abrahamic faiths into mere "fantasy". I try and be open minded. I don't have proof one way or another as to the merit of these things. But everyone should have the right to believe what they want. And in these times, perhaps it's good to anchor oneself in something outside of themselves.

 

[beaker]

This is still a very interesting discussion.

I believe that joy, not fear, should be the reason one comes to a particular religion.

There was a time that I tried to reconcile being gay with being Christian and I still *personally* believe the Bible contains much societal prejudice reflecting the culture at the time when it was written that doesn't apply now. This means I lump the exploitative practice of polygamy, extreme female subservience and endorsement of slavery together with the condemnation of gays. It's kind of like being able to eat shellfish and pork in my mind. We no longer have a need to multiply so much either. However, since I no longer believe in the theology it is kind of moot.

The subjegation of women in Abrahamic faiths, at least in the culture and code created by men, is worrisome.

From the diminished role of women in many branches of Christian faiths, to the Islamic world to Judaism...women are pretty much still the n-word of the world. So I do see women and gays still at the vanguard of civil rights issues, in both modern and developing worlds. In the Sharia law world of Islam, women are strictly 2nd if not 3rd class citizens. No amount of American bombs is going to change that unless people from the ground up say no to fundamentalism. In "Christian" Uganda and Jamaica, blacks are routinely murdered for fun. And in Italy, you have a government that has rendered women as nothing less than playboy mansion sex slaves in the eyes of the nation...where a girl can only hope to grow up to be eye candy...while the "other" rulers in Italy(the Vatican) still have to contend with not just the sexism of their order but the ongoing sex scandals that have rocked the church.

I envision a future where there's no more second class citizenship for anyone, and a time when we can laugh at all this in a "man, what were they thinking" way. Much how we can now feel odd at hearing about "colored bathrooms" and such faux paus antiquities.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

I apologize on behalf of my fellow agnostic/athiest liberals for demeaning Christians and reducing Abrahamic faiths into mere "fantasy". I try and be open minded. I don't have proof one way or another as to the merit of these things. But everyone should have the right to believe what they want. And in these times, perhaps it's good to anchor oneself in something outside of themselves.

I appreciate that, beaker. Very well said. I think it is definitely good to be anchored in your beliefs, whatever they may be. Of course, I would always point everyone to Jesus, but as you said, everyone must choose what they want to believe, as is their right.

In "Christian" Uganda and Jamaica, blacks are routinely murdered for fun. And in Italy, you have a government that has rendered women as nothing less than playboy mansion sex slaves in the eyes of the nation...where a girl can only hope to grow up to be eye candy...while the "other" rulers in Italy(the Vatican) still have to contend with not just the sexism of their order but the ongoing sex scandals that have rocked the church.

Hmm- I'm not sure how much of those kinds of killings go on in either Uganda or Jamaica- although it seems rather funny since in America, we would consider most of their populations to be "black"- although they wouldn't. (And by that, I just mean that they have different racial and ethnic terms, etc.)
Anyway- all I was going to say on this is that Jesus said you will know His followers by their fruit. A good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree produces bad fruit. If people claiming to be Christians are committing murder in the name of Christ, then I would say they are most likely not really Christians. But we need to look at the life of Christ Himself to judge Christianity rather than judging by the lives of His followers who still fall so woefully short. And of course, that is where Jesus' grace comes in- grace that is greater than all our sins.