The Bible and Love and Christians

[Bannanasketch]

I think that I've already posted on here my views on homosexuality and how i think it is wrong. That being said, I am absolutely disgusted by those stats and how many LBGT teens are thrown out of their homes and become homeless. It disgusts me how people treat them like trash. It disgusts me how kids commit suicide because they are bullied. It absolutely disgusts me how there are so called "christias" that think they can treat people like that. People need to know that they are cared for and that they are loved. Jesus himself tells us to love our neighbor. I don't understand why people don't understand that! I really do hope that it gets better for teens like that. I really do.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Jesus himself tells us to love our neighbor. I don't understand why people don't understand that

I think people do understand. That's what is meant by "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." People want to do the right thing, but the right way is always the harder way. It's easier to give into anger and selfishness and cruelty. We associate being a good person with light and pretty colors but in reality it's a difficult challenge for all human beings.

 

[frogboy4]

I think that I've already posted on here my views on homosexuality and how i think it is wrong. That being said, I am absolutely disgusted by those stats and how many LBGT teens are thrown out of their homes and become homeless. It disgusts me how people treat them like trash. It disgusts me how kids commit suicide because they are bullied. It absolutely disgusts me how there are so called "christias" that think they can treat people like that. People need to know that they are cared for and that they are loved. Jesus himself tells us to love our neighbor. I don't understand why people don't understand that! I really do hope that it gets better for teens like that. I really do.

I truly think that most of the time people use religion as a shield for personal prejudice. Many parents use religion as an excuse for kicking their gay children out on the streets because they feel some sort of personal failure when the only real failure is the rejection of their own children.

I don't think there's that big a difference, considering it's humans and their nature that helped develop the concept of spirituality in the first place. But in any case my point was, why would a sentiment like that be in our human nature at all? Why would we have this desire to treat people in a fair way? Why not create a sentiment of selfishness?

I understand what you're saying, but (not intending to be offensive) I personally believe human beings and not God created the Christian Bible so we're at a stalemate of differing beliefs there. I think people are basically good, like Jim Henson once said, and that we all want to treat others as we'd like to be treated. Selfishness is the immature state of children before learning consequences. I don't believe religion is the only thing that provides morality. I'm aware the Christian view believes differently on that as well. I was speaking of Christian spirituality and not secular spirituality anyway, so no biggie.

 

[RedPiggy]

Many parents use religion as an excuse for kicking their gay children out on the streets because they feel some sort of personal failure when the only real failure is the rejection of their own children.

That kind of reminds me of a discussion I took part in elsewhere over the Prodigal Son. A lot of Christians go on and on about how wonderful the Father was for letting the idiot come back home. However, as I get older, I have more and more of an issue with the father of the story. He let the kid go back. Yea. On the other hand, *inhales* HE LET HIS SON BECOME A LOSER AND DIDN'T DO SQUAT TO ENSURE HIS OWN SON'S SAFETY! When the son first starts to screw up in life, where was the father? When Idiot decides, "Hey, what does this button do?", the Father just lets him. No wonder the older brother was upset. The parable makes it out like the brother's upset because he obeyed and the other kid didn't, but if you start to question the father's role, you see that the brother could also have been mad that the kid is getting rewarded for the FATHER's screwup. Think of Esau and Jacob. Esau is painted as the villain, but who would blame him for being ticked off? What right did his brother have to royally screw him over? Where was all that morality as mother and brother plotted viciously and arrogantly against him?

Anyway, I like the Golden Rule. On the other hand, it can also suffer the same problem as above: I think a lot of us wouldn't appreciate dealing with someone who thought "cutting" was a valuable experience. The Golden Rule starts falling apart once you realize some people are into some really weird things. It's fine as a bumper sticker slogan, but as with anything, religious or secular, I feel it is of vital importance to delve deeper than that.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I truly think that most of the time people use religion as a shield for personal prejudice.

But what about athiests who have prejudices (they do exist), where does that come from? Not trying to be rude, just continuing the conversation.

I understand what you're saying, but (not intending to be offensive) I personally believe human beings and not God created the Christian Bible so we're at a stalemate of differing beliefs there.

There's no stalemate, obviously human beings created the Christian Bible. The authors were human and by the way, so was Jesus.

The parable makes it out like the brother's upset because he obeyed and the other kid didn't, but if you start to question the father's role, you see that the brother could also have been mad that the kid is getting rewarded for the FATHER's screwup.

I get what you're saying, but on the other hand your parents can't follow you around your whole life making sure you don't screw up. It was the son's choice to go out into the world and ultimately his own responsibility. And it's not that the kid is being rewarded, it's that the father is being merciful toward him despite his screw ups. He doesn't deserve any of what he's getting at the end, it's not a reward. It's mercy. It's also meant to be symbolic of forgiving a sinner who has realized his mistakes.

The Golden Rule starts falling apart once you realize some people are into some really weird things. It's fine as a bumper sticker slogan, but as with anything, religious or secular, I feel it is of vital importance to delve deeper than that.

The great majority of people are not into intentionally hurting themselves in that manner. Exceptions like that do not unprove a rule. The premise of the rule is, for instance, you would not want someone to cheat you out of your money. Therefore you shouldn't do it to someone else.

 

[Bannanasketch]

I think people do understand. That's what is meant by "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." People want to do the right thing, but the right way is always the harder way. It's easier to give into anger and selfishness and cruelty. We associate being a good person with light and pretty colors but in reality it's a difficult challenge for all human beings.

I guess you could be right about that. I just don't understand why people would rather do the wrong thing when it's not that hard to treat people the way you would want to be treated.

I truly think that most of the time people use religion as a shield for personal prejudice. Many parents use religion as an excuse for kicking their gay children out on the streets because they feel some sort of personal failure when the only real failure is the rejection of their own children.

That's what I hate. My personal belief is that there a people that are truly Christians and people who claim to be Christians. Those who are Christians take in the whole bible clearly and can understnad what it says. Those who claim to be Christians are people who take verses from the bible out of context and twist it around to satisfy their own prejudices. I have had arguments with some of my friends who support homosexuality about wether or not homosexuality is right. I've also had arguments where I have been on my friend's side in which we argued with somebody else who claimed to be Christain but really just took the verses out of context to support his view.

That kind of reminds me of a discussion I took part in elsewhere over the Prodigal Son. A lot of Christians go on and on about how wonderful the Father was for letting the idiot come back home. However, as I get older, I have more and more of an issue with the father of the story. He let the kid go back. Yea. On the other hand, *inhales* HE LET HIS SON BECOME A LOSER AND DIDN'T DO SQUAT TO ENSURE HIS OWN SON'S SAFETY! When the son first starts to screw up in life, where was the father? When Idiot decides, "Hey, what does this button do?", the Father just lets him. No wonder the older brother was upset. The parable makes it out like the brother's upset because he obeyed and the other kid didn't, but if you start to question the father's role, you see that the brother could also have been mad that the kid is getting rewarded for the FATHER's screwup. Think of Esau and Jacob. Esau is painted as the villain, but who would blame him for being ticked off? What right did his brother have to royally screw him over? Where was all that morality as mother and brother plotted viciously and arrogantly against him?

Redpiggy, look at it this way. God represents the father and followers of him represent the son. God gives us free will here on earth. He lets us choose and decide our own decisions. That shows that the son did his own thing but the father (God) did not step in and do anything about it. Now, that also means that followers can get off of the path and go their own way. When the followers (the son) finally realizes what he did was wrong, he goes back. God wants his followers to come back. When we realize what we did wrong, God welcomes us back into his arms with all of his grace and forgiveness. I hope that clears that up.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I guess you could be right about that. I just don't understand why people would rather do the wrong thing when it's not that hard to treat people the way you would want to be treated.

Well you're right that it isn't that hard in itself, but I think people let things get in the way. Like their own pride, wanting to be successful and on top and not admit they're wrong. Or their fears and insecurities. Everybody's in pain and everybody's desperate for a way to make it go away.

My personal belief is that there a people that are truly Christians and people who claim to be Christians.

I think human beings are both at different times, in different situations. And that goes for any belief system.

Redpiggy, look at it this way. God represents the father and followers of him represent the son. God gives us free will here on earth. He lets us choose and decide our own decisions. That shows that the son did his own thing but the father (God) did not step in and do anything about it. Now, that also means that followers can get off of the path and go their own way. When the followers (the son) finally realizes what he did was wrong, he goes back. God wants his followers to come back. When we realize what we did wrong, God welcomes us back into his arms with all of his grace and forgiveness. I hope that clears that up.

You explained that very well! God is like a parent and a parent's job is to raise you and then let you become an adult on your own, not keep you on a leash in case you screw up. And if you do screw up, which you will, that doesn't mean the door is closed on your forever, there is forgiveness. Which is another one of those very difficult things humans often struggle with.

 

[RedPiggy]

But what about athiests who have prejudices (they do exist), where does that come from? Not trying to be rude, just continuing the conversation.

Well, from the ones I tend to talk to, it's usually something "logical" like science. So, instead of women being inferior because Adam's Charizard said so, we hear women are inferior due to differences in physical sizes, culturally historical "facts", etc.

I get what you're saying, but on the other hand your parents can't follow you around your whole life making sure you don't screw up.

And I get it, I really do. Jesus' parables aren't THAT hard to understand, despite what His apostles thought. I'm not talking about the kid whose parents raised them right and for whatever reason screwed up. I'm talking about classmates of mine in high school who wrecked three cars in as many weeks, went partying all the time, etc ... with little to no discipline at all. We don't let parents off the hook for neglect and abuse just because their kid could easily have grown past that trauma.

It was the son's choice to go out into the world and ultimately his own responsibility.

Being born of self-absorbed parents with personality disorders, I resent a parent who is so aloof he doesn't even check on the kid to see how he's doing. The father seems more like he was watching the game on tv as his kid is about to threaten to run away and he's like, "Well, don't let the door hit you on the way out." My father, every so often, wants to just pop up somehow, acting like because we're getting older, everything should be fine, as long as he is blamed in no way for his actions. It's funny how the kids are responsible for THEIR sins and the parents want to get off scot-free. Sorry, I live this crap, and it just doesn't wash with me. There is asking for forgiveness, and there's also trying to get out of trouble.

The great majority of people are not into intentionally hurting themselves in that manner.

Maybe not that drastically, but I've never met anyone who does nothing but healthy things, neither.

My personal belief is that there a people that are truly Christians and people who claim to be Christians.

That's my experience, too. Sometimes it's funny to contemplate the qualities of the claimants.

I've also had arguments where I have been on my friend's side in which we argued with somebody else who claimed to be Christain but really just took the verses out of context to support his view.

But there are many views stated in the bible. That it's readers also can disagree should not be much of a shock.

God gives us free will here on earth.

Free will is an illusion. I no longer believe in something that is clearly designed to make us look better than we are to ourselves. When people sin, it's their own fault. Amazingly enough, if people don't sin, God takes the credit. Either we're in charge or we aren't. And I have yet to see meaningful evidence that we are. Sorry.

Now, that also means that followers can get off of the path and go their own way.

All paths end up on God's doorstep, though. Again, in an argument against free will, God has to sign off on whatever happened anyway. You can't run from God when He's omnipresent. You can follow all the twisty-turny paths you want, but what you don't see from God's perspective is that all the different ant conga lines are actually together on one big sidewalk of the cosmos.

When the followers (the son) finally realizes what he did was wrong, he goes back.

Had the child ran away and been successful, we would not be having this conversation. The story can't just be about repentance, or the kid could've just stopped being a moron where he was and made a decent living. And since I believe God is omnipresent, there is no "going back", since there was never a "left." I tried "leaving" God when I was a teenager. God just sorta snickered and rolled His eyes. I finally grasped that He had been with me the entire time. The Prodigal Son analogy is flawed because a human father can't have this element to him.

 

[Bannanasketch]

No offense, Redpiggy, but I don't think you fully understand this parable. When something goes wrong with a child, people are qucik to point the finger at the parent. Think about suicides. Sadly, when teens commit suicide people are quick to point the finger at the parent. They say the parent didn't love them enough or they didn't raise their child the right way. Well, usually, it's not the parent's fault. The son in the story was responsible for his own actions and it was not the father's fault. I hope you understand a little better.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Well, from the ones I tend to talk to, it's usually something "logical" like science. So, instead of women being inferior because Adam's Charizard said so, we hear women are inferior due to differences in physical sizes, culturally historical "facts", etc.

Yeah good point, that makes sense. I've known people like that too. People are quite capable of justifying nonesense with no help from religion.

And I get it, I really do. Jesus' parables aren't THAT hard to understand, despite what His apostles thought.

Right and by the same token, they're not supposed to be analyzed so deeply. They're not novels, they're short stories used as parallels to important lessons. There is no child, he's not real, it's just a story Jesus uses to make a point about forgiveness.

It's funny how the kids are responsible for THEIR sins and the parents want to get off scot-free. Sorry, I live this crap, and it just doesn't wash with me.

Well I agree with your there, especially as a Tears for Fears fan, since they delt with that a lot, hehe. But again, that's not really the purpose of this particular story. It's not a psychological study on parental fitness. It's just making a simple point on forgiveness.

Sort of reminds me of the Mystery Science Theater song, "If you're wondering how he eats and breaths and other science facts, just repeat to your 'it's just a show, I should really just relax.'"

Amazingly enough, if people don't sin, God takes the credit. Either we're in charge or we aren't. And I have yet to see meaningful evidence that we are. Sorry.

I'm not sure what you mean by "God takes the credit." Not to be rude, just asking for further explanation.

The story can't just be about repentance, or the kid could've just stopped being a moron where he was and made a decent living.

The kid is out of money and inexperienced, so his first thought is to go back to his father. The boy repents but he's not suddenly perfect and capable. Few people are. The point is he's smart enough to know he needs help.