The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

In the words of Monty Python…

“And now for something completely different!"

I live in a city that much of the world paints as liberalism run amok! This native Houston, Texan used to think that too, but after spending over sixteen years of my life here I’ve found that to be an oversimplification. Yes, there are many strange uber-liberal political stances, yet this tiny city of about 7.5 square miles is a melting pot of all sorts of people.

We have many different strict traditional cultures here living alongside others of opposing views in harmony. We do have violence and crime like most urban areas, but it’s much less than it would be anywhere else in the world with this level of diversity. It’s beautiful for me to see stunning Catholic cathedrals in clear view of traditional Buddhist temples. Unitarian Churches close by Jewish Temples and Muslim mosques adjacent to youth centers for homeless gay youth.

Gay youth makes up far too much of the homeless population in this country because they are abandoned by their families for ideological reasons. It’s a shame and, again, a big part of why this thread was started – telling gay and bullied youth that things do get better! Many of these young people make their way here to discover who they are without the constraints of other’s beliefs and there are so many to choose from. Until recently I’ve been jaded to how exceptional this environment really can be. New York is also a melting pot, but it doesn’t quite have the same ingrained sensitivity. I wish more of the world could find their own path to our end result.

By the end of this year I will have spent more time living here than Houston and I’m proud to call San Francisco – a place where one can hold on to any number of distinct beliefs and traditions with dignity and equality – not only a residence, but also my home.

Counting my blessings today!

 

[CensoredAlso]

It’s beautiful for me to see stunning Catholic cathedrals in clear view of traditional Buddhist temples. Unitarian Churches close by Jewish Temples and Muslim mosques adjacent to youth centers for homeless gay youth.

That's really cool, I hope I get to see that someday.

Gay youth makes up far too much of the homeless population in this country because they are abandoned by their families for ideological reasons.

Oh yeah I don't think people realize how often that happens. People don't want to believe it I guess, but it's amazing how cruel people can be.

Of course it's important to remember that the majority of parents don't go that far. And it's not the end of the world if your parents don't agree with you, as long as they love you.

a big part of why this thread was started – telling gay and bullied youth that things do get better!

I think that's something every child needs to understand more. That High School or even College in no way represents the rest of your life. The popular people can end up disasters in the real world and the unpopular people can go on to huge success. I think it's hard for kids to get their heads around that sometimes because they just haven't had the life experience.

 

[bingboingcutie]

Amen. gonzoleaper. You are a true man of faith. I can't wait to meet you in God's kingdom someday. Until then, God bless.

Hey, that's COOL! Thanks for the reminder! I can't WAIT to see everybody in Heaven, if not on Earth! That'll be fun.

And yeah, I think too many high schoolers and college people get teased. I wish there was some way I could take care of that, but I'd probably have a hard time saying they were being mean.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I can't WAIT to see everybody in Heaven, if not on Earth! That'll be fun.

Indeed, a very comforting thought.

And yeah, I think too many high schoolers and college people get teased. I wish there was some way I could take care of that, but I'd probably have a hard time saying they were being mean.

Well sometimes the best thing to do is remind the victims of bullying that they still have friends.

 

[frogboy4]

That's really cool, I hope I get to see that someday.

Oh yeah I don't think people realize how often that happens. People don't want to believe it I guess, but it's amazing how cruel people can be.

Of course it's important to remember that the majority of parents don't go that far. And it's not the end of the world if your parents don't agree with you, as long as they love you.

I think that's something every child needs to understand more. That High School or even College in no way represents the rest of your life. The popular people can end up disasters in the real world and the unpopular people can go on to huge success. I think it's hard for kids to get their heads around that sometimes because they just haven't had the life experience.

Exactly. Sensitivity to all is extremely important especially at a young age. I know too many people deeply scarred when they were young due to how others dealt with their being gay. I've certainly developed a thick skin because of it and learned tolerance along my journey.

I was shamed as a teenager for being gay and many religious representatives and family members attempted to frighten me into their way of thinking so I wouldn't burn on the afterlife. I'm a good guy and choose to focus on this life. I know that's not enough for most devout folks, but they should share that message with someone who is receptive to it. Some still pester me thinking it's their duty and that I'll come around to "believing" someday. Grrr! That's not okay.

I still have a good relationship with my evangelical family even though we see things differently. In all honesty…it’s really not all that different as far as daily life and personal values are concerned. Anyway, I have many friends who were teased, terrorized, violently attacked, kicked out of their homes and had their lives ruined as teenagers for only the simple fact of their being gay. It’s not necessarily the norm, but it’s still rampant!

So when I get passionate about equal rights it’s because of my 36 years of seeing many things and having all types of people cry on my shoulder and ask for my support in times of need. I have witnessed countless horror stories. Another funny thing is there are many gay friends who still believe they can be both out and Christian. It seems the majority of people in that faith disagree and back that with scripture. That’s not a road I’ll go down because I reject that book as a whole, yet I have seen gay people retain their faith and thrive.

There are so many different people in this world and we should all respect others while being allowed to equally pursue our beliefs.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Another funny thing is there are many gay friends who still believe they can be both out and Christian. It seems the majority of people in that faith disagree and back that with scripture. That’s not a road I’ll go down because I reject that book as a whole, yet I have seen gay people retain their faith and thrive.

Yes I actually have had several gay friends who identify themselves as Christians. I mean, I'm annoyed that The Catholic Church thinks my gender makes me unworthy of being a priest, but I still choose to stay. There were things Jesus disagreed with about his religion. But he stayed because he wanted to work to change things.

Not saying you have to, that's your choice. Just explaining why others would. : )

 

[dwmckim]

Since i haven't posted in this thread, i'm offering this as an observer (also as someone who was once a moderator of this forum before "real life" kept me from being able to be that active)

One of the major problems with discussions of religion in general (whether it be in this forum or other places on and off line) is that often people are coming to it from different "playing fields" - especially when the topic of faith comes up. There are those who will discuss the Bible as their sole point of reference...everything INSIDE it is where all the answers lie and they'll discuss from that perspective. Others come to the table with views and perspectives from OUTSIDE the Bible...including modern issues/current events and the history of how exactly what ended up inside the text (and the current English translations) came to be in there. Some are happy to never consider what went into making the Bible the text it is and will only look to inside its pages for their answers and views. Others are looking at a broader picture for their perspective. Ultimately what happens (and i've seen this occur throughout this thread) is those looking at the larger picture will offer what they've found and discovered and someone who looks inside will respond with passages and quotes. This is why i usually stay away from such discussions - they often don't go anywhere because half the participants are looking at The Mona Lisa and the other half are looking at Warhol's soup cans.

Nonetheless, i have seen this thread be very respectful and adult and perhaps because many of its participants have been involved with other threads that have gone downhill and have approached a new thread with previous mistakes and mishaps in mind, everyone's been VERY CAREFUL and have gone out of their way to not only present their observations in an adult and mature manner but also with appropriate disclaimers where they are very careful to mention certain incidents being applicable to a subsection as opposed to a large "all" stroke. People have been doing a wonderful job overall of representing their views while at the same time making clear the reasons they've come to them and taking care not to be offensive.

Ironically enough, the very first post to bring the rest of the discussion down and seemed to break away from the civility and maturity was Bannanasketch's post complaining about being offended. He saw something that obviously rubbed him the wrong way or made him angry and perhaps because he was colored by his emotions, did not fully read or bother to try to understand what the original poster was fully saying as he threw in lots of accusations that were false to what was previously being posted and in doing so slandered those he was disageeing with by (indirectly) quoting them way out of context.

Looking at his post which started to bring the otherwise well discussed conversation down...

Okay, this is it. I'm done with arguing about this.

That in itself may be a huge part of the problem. Everyone else has been "discussing". Bannanasketch seems to be approaching the thread as an arguement when everyone else has been taking a more civil approach.

Most of the comments I read are the same liberal crap I hear alot. I dont want to come on here and read all that.

For someone making a claim that the thread has been offensive, this is the first thing i've read in the thread that was very blatently being disrespectful. Apparently anything that Bannanasketch doesn't like or agree with is "liberal crap" In making a statement like that he (a) implies that a particular ideology or side of a spectrum is wrong, invalid, and worthy of disdain or insult, (b) uses vulgarity to do so (c) implies that only one political view (his) is "allowed" and (d) attempts to paint anything he doesn't like or agree with as being something political - whereas one's political affiliation does not have anything to do with their religious beliefs - people who are are conservative or liberal can both share same beliefs.

A discussion is when more than one viewpoint is expressed and Bannanasketch is essentially saying he doesn't want one side included - doesn't want to read it, hear it (and judging by his over the top reactions, he certainly DOESN'T seem to be really "reading" them)

So, I'm tired of hearing that Christians are just discriminitating terrorists who want the entire world to follow us. I'm tired of hearing that we're the bad guys and we are intoxicating society.

...which no one in this thread has done. Bannanasketch seems to have seen something he didn't like and chose to get mad at it before fully reading and trying to understand what it was really saying. So if you're "tired" of hearing this...well you ARE the first person who's actually said anything of this nature here...

I'm tired of coming on MC Forums just to come and put up with this! Therefore, i'm done arguing.

Good. No one else had even started "arguing".

We all have our beliefs but we just can't seem to keep it that way, can we? I will pray for you guys but please stop.

Now that first sentence doesn't even make sense. When has anyone said we can't have our beliefs? Up UNTIL this post, everyone's been very CAREFUL of making distinctions of what they feel while not saying someone who doesn't share the same belief is invalid...that is until "someone" decided to throw out things like "liberal crap"... For someone who wants insults (which hadn't existed) to "please stop", he had no problem starting the inflammatory language.

Bannanasketch, i want to be clear that i'm not trying to "pick on you" as i'm sure that's probably how you're going to feel when you read this. I'm just pointing out that your post was actually the first one to really take an offensive and non-civil tone at the same time you were trying to claim the rest of the discussion was something it wasn't. Heed your own advice.

It appears the way you react to things that you don't agree with is to get angry at them and not take the time to try to fully understand them because it's easier to just be offended at something that was never even there to begin with than to take time to learn about all the various colors of society that can co-exist without false designations of "right" and "wrong". If anger is your first way of reacting to something, then take some time to step away and calm down with a clearer head before responding.

So if you're tired of discussions like this and don't want to read them, then don't. Don't read threads or anything else outside of this forum that may include different views and perspectives that you're incapable of reading without getting mad to the extent that you can't even try to understand what they may be really saying. But be forewarned, if you're just here to enjoy Muppet Fandom...well the Muppets and Jim Henson's messages have historically and consistently been about (and from) people of different backgrounds striving to understand each other and were chockful of the "liberal crap" you don't want to be part of your life experience.

(Stepping back outside and returning everyone to the previously scheduled *discussion*)

 

[Bannanasketch]

After some thought...

I've put a lot of thought into what I've said and what other members have posted on this thread and I would like to make a statement. I apologize for much of what I said and I know I overreacted. Something inside of me just went off and I got mad at everybody. I know I probably offended some of you guys, and I'm sorry. I used some offenesive terms such as "liberal crap" in this thread and "tree huggers" in the PETA thread. You are right, frogboy, name calling like that is unacceptable and I apologize again. I really don't know what happened. I am usually not that kind of person. Frogboy, I apologize if you thought I was attacking your character, that was not what I intended to do. And I did not start arguing because of other Christians leaving this thread. That was not a statement of supremacy, and I accept your apology for misunderstanding me. Believe me, I did not mean to insult but I did. I apologize for everything I said. I did twist some of your words to make it sound like you were arguing and I am deeply sorry. If I have offended anybody, I apologize greatly.

Please don't think that I am a bad person. What I did was not Christlike and went against my beliefs and who I usually am. I'm going to think some more whether or not I should join back into this discussion or leave. I want to continue to discuss this in a mature manner. Please, allow me back in. Again, I don't want you to think of me in a rude manner. I hope you can accept me back into this group. I will not insult or offend anybody else. I am very sorry for my comments and I hope you can forgive me.

Thank you,
Bannanasketch

 

[CensoredAlso]

Please don't think that I am a bad person. What I did was not Christlike and went against my beliefs and who I usually am.

Hey you're a human being, it's normal. Even Jesus got angry and lost it sometimes.

 

[Bannanasketch]

Thanks for understanding, Heralde. I made a mistake and I want to continue posting on this thread.