The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

Yeah it's actually a very nice website and Richard's page is frequently updated with fans' tribute.



I understand and I agree that emotional abuse should not be minimized. I guess what I'm saying is that in general, we as Americans don't always realize how fortunate we are (despite our problems), because we haven't had to live through what peoples of more violently oppressive nations and governments do on a daily basis.

As a woman for instance, I have had to deal with emotional discrimination on numerous occasions, and it's horrible, it shouldn't be minimized. But on the other hand I'm grateful I don't live in a country where it's legal to stone women in the streets.

Agreed. That's still around today! I just heard about that Harry Potter actress being shunned by her family for dating outside her religion. Freaky! Someone like me would be the devil to them.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Agreed. That's still around today! I just heard about that Harry Potter actress being shunned by her family for dating outside her religion. Freaky! Someone like me would be the devil to them.

Oh I did hear about that, very sad, very frightening.

Now I should clarify, it wasn't my intention to smear an entire group. I was just trying to point out that all religions have their extremists. Even athiest governments have been guilty of oppression. Ultimately the real culprit is human beings, no matter what their affiiliation, heh.

Still, and this is something we forget too often, I think most people are decent. Not perfect, nowhere near that, and they make mistakes, even against people they love. But they try their best and that's all any of us can do.

 

[frogboy4]

Oh I did hear about that, very sad, very frightening.

Now I should clarify, it wasn't my intention to smear an entire group. I was just trying to point out that all religions have their extremists. Even athiest governments have been guilty of oppression. Ultimately the real culprit is human beings, no matter what their affiiliation, heh.

Still, and this is something we forget too often, I think most people are decent. Not perfect, nowhere near that, and they make mistakes, even against people they love. But they try their best and that's all any of us can do.

Absolutely true!

I'm also annoyed by certain Atheists posting anti-Christmas billboards just as much as the condescending ones some Christian churches post all year 'round. There's no need to be snarky or fearful of one another. Our beliefs are something that should excite us and not be tools of shame used to clobber other people into following.

I attended a church service with my family this Christmas and it was probably one of the warmest and best congregations I've yet seen. However, I still wanted to crawl out of my skin the whole time after hearing the same message, the same words, and the same sentiment even with the charismatic tone. My greatest objection was the pastor's notion that most people who reject the idea of Christ do so because they feel unworthy. That's not true in my experience. I have fantastic self-esteem, but just find the Christianity's pitch a little too absurd for my personal taste, but that doesn’t mean I judge others who disagree and find great value in it. I don’t plan to set foot in a church again unless someone I love weds or dies. There’s nothing more there for me.

Still, I do find great wealth in the basic message that every moment is an opportunity to change our lives - that we are accountable for our past, but not confined by it. That concept of redemption is beautiful and not exclusively Christian. That, and the idea of a higher power and treating others with love and compassion is just about all I will believe in.

Whatever afterlife there may be...well, I hope to be in the same one as Jim Henson, Richard Hunt, Chuck Jones, Jerry Juhl, Gandhi and the many other creative people because it will be boring sitting on that cloud without their spark, heart and entertainment.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I'm also annoyed by certain Atheists posting anti-Christmas billboards just as much as the condescending ones some Christian churches post all year 'round. There's no need to be snarky or fearful of one another.

Oh the "You know it's a myth" billboards? What I love about those is the part that says "This season celebrate reason." Yeah...because that sounds like fun...Um, yay reason!...I guess... Lol (And yes I just compared Sam to an Atheist, who knew? !)

OK here comes a Christian giving the Atheists some advice: They should spend more time talking about what they stand for, rather than wasting all their energy criticizing everyone else. I respect Atheists who talk about the dignity and power of humanity. Not when they're so obsessed with destroying their competition. ; )

My greatest objection was the pastor's notion that most people who reject the idea of Christ do so because they feel unworthy. I don’t plan to set foot in a church again unless someone I love weds or dies. There’s nothing more there for me.

The thing about services is a lot of it depends on the individual running the service you go to. For me, I'm happy when I encounter priests or nuns who concentrate on Jesus' message of the last coming in first, or loving your enemy. That to me should be the most important things to take away from Christianity.

Whatever afterlife there may be...well, I hope to be in the same one as Jim Henson, Richard Hunt, Chuck Jones, Jerry Juhl, Gandhi and the many other creative people because it will be boring sitting on that cloud without their spark, heart and entertainment.

Keep the faith!

 

[Bannanasketch]

Okay, this is it. I'm done with arguing about this. When I start hearing stuff like "Christian Indoctrination" and other offensive comments, I get kind of angry. This is not what MC Forums should be like! We are all part of this forum to discuss our muppet fandom and not argue about our political and religous views! Most of the comments I read are the same liberal crap I hear alot. I dont want to come on here and read all that. I want to enjoy Muppet Central and it's fun and excitement. So, I'm tired of hearing that Christians are just discriminitating terrorists who want the entire world to follow us. I'm tired of hearing that we're the bad guys and we are intoxicating society. I'm tired of coming on MC Forums just to come and put up with this! Therefore, i'm done arguing. We all have our beliefs but we just can't seem to keep it that way, can we? I will pray for you guys but please stop. I just want MC Forums to be a place that we can all enjoy without offensive comments and arguments about what's right or wrong.

 

[frogboy4]

Hmmmm...not sure if you've really been reading this...

Okay, this is it. I'm done with arguing about this. When I start hearing stuff like "Christian Indoctrination" and other offensive comments, I get kind of angry. This is not what MC Forums should be like! We are all part of this forum to discuss our muppet fandom and not argue about our political and religous views! Most of the comments I read are the same liberal crap I hear alot. I dont want to come on here and read all that. I want to enjoy Muppet Central and it's fun and excitement. So, I'm tired of hearing that Christians are just discriminitating terrorists who want the entire world to follow us. I'm tired of hearing that we're the bad guys and we are intoxicating society. I'm tired of coming on MC Forums just to come and put up with this! Therefore, i'm done arguing. We all have our beliefs but we just can't seem to keep it that way, can we? I will pray for you guys but please stop. I just want MC Forums to be a place that we can all enjoy without offensive comments and arguments about what's right or wrong.

Hi! You joined about a year ago, so I don't really know who you are yet. Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Jamie. I'm a gay Muppet fan and one of many faithful Muppet Central members who helped build this place for over a decade through graphics as a staff member and relationships as a former moderator and now forum member. This is why I take exception to the idea that we can't have a civil conversation here.

I've made a point not only to be honest, but to go out of my way to not paint all Christians or any type with the same brush. Any other perspective concerning the content of my posts must be taken waaaaay out of context. It could be that you haven’t digested the content of this thread as intended or maybe you are easily offended. Either way I am sorry you are distressed. It might be a good idea for you to avoid such conversations and leave them to other members. There are many enjoyable threads on Muppet Central and many smiley faces I created over there in the right hand panel to lighten the mood here when things get too serious -->

. I just think both gay people and Christians can equally enjoy the things in life, the country, the world and on Muppet Central. Don't you? We've been having a mature conversation in this thread, but when you throw around a term like "liberal crap" it appears that you have an exclusively Christian agenda rather than an all inclusive agenda (that includes Christians too) for everybody. You seemed perfectly fine discussing this topic when people agreed with you, yet took issue with my respectfully thought-out post later and followed that by claiming that everything here should be only Muppet themed. We've been discussing nuances and not bashing one another. Maybe you haven't picked up on that

The Muppet writers, creators and performers have included Christians, Jews, gays and a variety of other individuals so to be offended when Christianity isn’t the supreme focus just isn’t right. The world and forum I prefer includes everybody from Christians and Conservatives to Liberals and Gays and Muslims and Jews and Agnostics and Atheists and all sorts of others as equals. No one better than the other and everyone gets the right to choose their own path free from the arbitrary demands of others.

To be clear: to indoctrinate means to “imbue a person with an idea or opinion” which is what happens when families raise their children under any belief system Christian or otherwise. It isn’t a sinister word. I personally object to the practice occurring before an individual has been adequately exposed to all the options - - however, I have also stated this objection to be a personal one that is a right that every parent should have within their family unit. Families should have the freedom to teach their values to their children whatever they happen to be.

Please read the entire posts and ask questions before attacking. I'd be glad to explain my thoughts to you while equally respecting yours. That's what I've been doing and that's what this place is about. But if you believe that Christians should have some sort of supremacy in this world or in this forum then use your ignore feature on my posts and refrain from using such statements of supremacy on the forum as it contradicts the rules and guidelines of Muppet Central Forums. Thank you.

In addition I trust that this thread will not be shut down as I'd take much issue and offense to it since other Christian-themed threads are permitted to openly exist here.

 

[RedPiggy]

You seemed perfectly fine discussing this topic when people agreed with you, yet took issue with my respectfully thought-out post later and followed that by claiming that everything here should be only Muppet themed.

As someone who spends more and more time on sites like Beliefnet, I can assure you that this is a major problem, not just here but lots of places. The best part is when they think you're evil incarnate and they wash their hands of you evil sinner, but yet they can't seem to tear themselves away. At least here we don't seem to have a bunch of messiah-wannabes like on religious-themed sites. That gets old REAL fast. This is one of the tamer religious threads I've posted on. The sad thing is that if even posted half the things I've learned over the years of my religion, we'd never have time to look at any other thread. I guess if you take the time to learn about the history and context of your beliefs, you're an evil liberal. Oh well, I've been called worse by more "informed" conservative types. Like I've told people on Beliefnet, I've been sent to Hades so often I think I own stock in the trip down there, LOL.

At any rate, my attempts to note some issues with my OWN religion will never change the minds of those who are completely made up. The Not-So-Nice place will be frozen over before that happens. My only objective was to counter ideas with roots based in misinformation. That's not an insult. It's historical fact. What I've always admired about the bible is that it offers a mostly frank view of itself. The heroes are usually hardcore jerks. The villains are conveniently whoever the author disliked. Even the "sinless" ones could use an attitude adjustment here and there. For many critics, these less-than-pleasant elements are signs that the books are highly flawed. I disagree. Having talked to Jews who started the thing, the idea of including all the dirty laundry was about helping future generations avoid the mistakes of their elders. That's a goal I can get behind. Whitewashing a tomb still leaves the guy dead inside. It really is better for everyone to be aware it's a grave and learn from who lies there.

It's partly why it irritates me when "kiddie" shows are viewed as stories that can't have any "bad" parts. Really? Is that how one prepares kids for life? By hiding it? Fraggle Rock is a good example of a show that did it right (and SST to a lesser extent). FR is viewed as a kiddie show where nothing dangerous happens, but that's due to people blinding themselves to the obvious. Fraggles are in constant danger of dying. If you look at what happens in the episodes objectively, you start to wonder how they luck out and live at all, what with all the cave-ins, predatory plants and animals, monsters, toxic environments, etc. Fraggle Rock doesn't hide its issues, they just don't harp on it. It's treated like just another element of life. That's how real life IS: a bunch of events. Some you'll like. Some not so much. What matters is how you react to it.

People who believe there should only be one thought, religion, whatever should be forced to watch a marathon of the episode in FR where the Fraggles discover radio. That episode deals precisely with this very type of thread. People must listen to the voice inside their hearts and not try to mistake a personal spiritual message for a global one. Otherwise, what you end up with is an empty cave.

In addition I trust that this thread will not be shut down as I'd take much issue and offense to it since other Christian-themed threads are permitted to openly exist here.

Amen.

 

[Bannanasketch]

Hi! You joined about a year ago, so I don't really know who you are yet. Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Jamie. I'm a gay Muppet fan and one of many faithful Muppet Central members who helped build this place for over a decade through graphics as a staff member and relationships as a former moderator and now forum member. This is why I take exception to the idea that we can't have a civil conversation here.

Well, I'm glad you are a part of this community of fans. I just wish that MC Forums can be the same place it was a while back. I don't believe this is a "civil conversation" anymore. It may have been earlier on but it doesn't seem like it anymore.

I've made a point not only to be honest, but to go out of my way to not paint all Christians or any type with the same brush. Any other perspective concerning the content of my posts must be taken waaaaay out of context. It could be that you haven’t digested the content of this thread as intended or maybe you are easily offended. Either way I am sorry you are distressed. It might be a good idea for you to avoid such conversations and leave them to other members. There are many enjoyable threads on Muppet Central and many smiley faces I created over there in the right hand panel to lighten the mood here when things get too serious

Actually, you have been painting all Christians with the same brush. Heralde even pointed it out that you've been portraying Christians as the bad guys who seem to want to be supreme over everybody. That's not true. And I have digested the content of this thread and I understand it. I believe that at the beginning of this thread, we WERE having a civil discussion. I appreciate civil discussions and I think it is a good idea to share views in a way that doesn't offend other beliefs but can still imply your views. Now, as I read through this thread even more I feel it's turned into more of a bashing of Christians instead of just a discussion. I first came to this thread to discuss, not to argue. Understand?

. I just think both gay people and Christians can equally enjoy the things in life, the country, the world and on Muppet Central. Don't you? We've been having a mature conversation in this thread, but when you throw around a term like "liberal crap" it appears that you have an exclusively Christian agenda rather than an all inclusive agenda (that includes Christians too) for everybody. You seemed perfectly fine discussing this topic when people agreed with you, yet took issue with my respectfully thought-out post later and followed that by claiming that everything here should be only Muppet themed. We've been discussing nuances and not bashing one another. Maybe you haven't picked up on that

I respect your beliefs and I wish you would respect mine. You were not having a "mature conversation" anymore. You were taking your views and bashing Christains. All I wanted to do was have a mature and civil discussion of beliefs. Is that too hard to ask for? I seemed perfectly fine discussing this topic when we all just got along and when we all were telling our beliefs in a mature manner. I don't think that everything here should just be muppet themed and I wasn't implying that. I was just saying that we are part of this forum all as muppet fans and I don't think arguments should be taking over this forum. You've been on the thread "MC- The Revival." Well, that's what I want MC to be like again. Not a place to argue or bash but a place to discuss and enjoy.

The Muppet writers, creators and performers have included Christians, Jews, gays and a variety of other individuals so to be offended when Christianity isn’t the supreme focus just isn’t right. The world and forum I prefer includes everybody from Christians and Conservatives to Liberals and Gays and Muslims and Jews and Agnostics and Atheists and all sorts of others as equals. No one better than the other and everyone gets the right to choose their own path free from the arbitrary demands of others.

To be clear: to indoctrinate means to “imbue a person with an idea or opinion” which is what happens when families raise their children under any belief system Christian or otherwise. It isn’t a sinister word. I personally object to the practice occurring before an individual has been adequately exposed to all the options - - however, I have also stated this objection to be a personal one that is a right that every parent should have within their family unit. Families should have the freedom to teach their values to their children whatever they happen to be.

For the first part, I think that should be the same for MC Forums. Where we don't argue and we just respect each other. Also, the so called "indoctrination" is not forcing children to be Christians. They choose when they get to the age when they understand better.

Please read the entire posts and ask questions before attacking. I'd be glad to explain my thoughts to you while equally respecting yours. That's what I've been doing and that's what this place is about. But if you believe that Christians should have some sort of supremacy in this world or in this forum then use your ignore feature on my posts and refrain from using such statements of supremacy on the forum as it contradicts the rules and guidelines of Muppet Central Forums. Thank you.

I'm not attacking your views! I'm not attacking anybody's views! I want to discuss this topic maturely with all of you but not argue! I've said it over and over again! I dont believe that Christians should have supremacy in the world! That would infringe upon free will and that's NOT how Christianity works! I have NEVER used statements of supremacy in this thread or anywhere else. You obviously have been misreading my statements and don't understand. Show me where I made a supremecist statement and I will apologize. I haven't made any comments like that and I will not make any comments like that.

In addition I trust that this thread will not be shut down as I'd take much issue and offense to it since other Christian-themed threads are permitted to openly exist here.

I'm not implying that this thread should close I only think that there is a better way to discuss and not to argue about our about our beliefs. I don't want anymore bashing of Christianity and I don't want to argue.

I think there is a better way to talk about this. You may think I'm young and don't know what I'm talking about but I do. Can we just have a nice fan community where there is no arguments and there is not any bashing. I respect your beliefs and I hope you can accept mine. I may try to stay away from arguments in the future. If you want to find me, you can find me in the Fan Fiction area where you can read The All New continuation of The MARVELous Muppets and Sesame, D.C. (sorry, I just had to promote there...)

 

[CensoredAlso]

Bananasketch, I definitely understand your concerns. But I just want to say we were not arguing or anything, we were just having a debate. Like the commentators on TV, they debate a topic, sometimes it gets a little passionate, but at the end of the segment they go off and have coffee together, lol. Maybe they don't end up agreeing with each other at all, but the point is they each got to state their positions. That's part of what the Founding Fathers intended, that all the voices be heard because we're all right sometimes and all wrong other times. : )

And just to clarify I know I've been praising America a lot lately, but no I am not trying to say that we're the only good country, lol.

 

[frogboy4]

Woah! Take a moment!

Well, I'm glad you are a part of this community of fans. I just wish that MC Forums can be the same place it was a while back. I don't believe this is a "civil conversation" anymore. It may have been earlier on but it doesn't seem like it anymore.

Actually, you have been painting all Christians with the same brush. Heralde even pointed it out that you've been portraying Christians as the bad guys who seem to want to be supreme over everybody. That's not true. And I have digested the content of this thread and I understand it. I believe that at the beginning of this thread, we WERE having a civil discussion. I appreciate civil discussions and I think it is a good idea to share views in a way that doesn't offend other beliefs but can still imply your views. Now, as I read through this thread even more I feel it's turned into more of a bashing of Christians instead of just a discussion. I first came to this thread to discuss, not to argue. Understand?

I respect your beliefs and I wish you would respect mine. You were not having a "mature conversation" anymore. You were taking your views and bashing Christains. All I wanted to do was have a mature and civil discussion of beliefs. Is that too hard to ask for? I seemed perfectly fine discussing this topic when we all just got along and when we all were telling our beliefs in a mature manner. I don't think that everything here should just be muppet themed and I wasn't implying that. I was just saying that we are part of this forum all as muppet fans and I don't think arguments should be taking over this forum. You've been on the thread "MC- The Revival." Well, that's what I want MC to be like again. Not a place to argue or bash but a place to discuss and enjoy.

For the first part, I think that should be the same for MC Forums. Where we don't argue and we just respect each other. Also, the so called "indoctrination" is not forcing children to be Christians. They choose when they get to the age when they understand better.

I'm not attacking your views! I'm not attacking anybody's views! I want to discuss this topic maturely with all of you but not argue! I've said it over and over again! I dont believe that Christians should have supremacy in the world! That would infringe upon free will and that's NOT how Christianity works! I have NEVER used statements of supremacy in this thread or anywhere else. You obviously have been misreading my statements and don't understand. Show me where I made a supremecist statement and I will apologize. I haven't made any comments like that and I will not make any comments like that.

I'm not implying that this thread should close I only think that there is a better way to discuss and not to argue about our about our beliefs. I don't want anymore bashing of Christianity and I don't want to argue.

I think there is a better way to talk about this. You may think I'm young and don't know what I'm talking about but I do. Can we just have a nice fan community where there is no arguments and there is not any bashing. I respect your beliefs and I hope you can accept mine. I may try to stay away from arguments in the future. If you want to find me, you can find me in the Fan Fiction area where you can read The All New continuation of The MARVELous Muppets and Sesame, D.C. (sorry, I just had to promote there...)

You obviously haven't digested anything I've written if that is what you have taken from it. I never "bashed" anyone except intolerant **individuals** including people who are Atheist, Christian or otherwise. To iterate - individuals - and not all of them! Yes, I’ve even mentioned gay peers who are intolerant and that’s not acceptable to me either.

NOTHING of what you've just claimed that I said is true. I had to put that in red because that's a very serious accusation you just hurled at me and I won't accept that!

In fact, if you are to discuss anything further with me I'd like an apology for that attack on my personal character! I have many decade-long friends on Muppet Central who know me, know my passion for certain topics; they know my heart and especially know that what you’ve said is grossly inaccurate! I won’t be libeled by you. This is why we can't have nice things on Muppet Central! Otherwise put me on your ignore filter immediately and discontinue referring to me or my posts anywhere in yours. I’ll get a moderator involved if that’s required to end your misrepresentation of my posts or person here, but I don’t see that as necessary. You seemed fine with the thread until the conversation shifted and fewer folk who 100% agreed with your point of view were posting. That's why I felt your attitude to be one of supremacy. If that is not so or I have missed something then I am sorry. I feel that something else happened between what I posted and your reply that isn't in this thread or in anything I have stated.

We can agree to disagree while being tolerant and that’s been both Heralde’s and my point all along. We’ve both been continually making certain of that, but certainly not accusing one another of what you claim. Both of us have actually been enjoying this discussion so something else must be going through your head on your end to make it appear otherwise.

We've been having a mature conversation in this thread, but when you throw around a term like "liberal crap" here or name-calling like "tree huggers" to describe animal rights activists and/or environmentalists is incorrect and is in fact painting everyone with one brush. I actually agreed with the bulk of what you said in that PETA thread, but not the unnecessary name-calling. Again, you seemed perfectly fine when the discussion was very indepth on "Jesusy" content, but then call foul when an indepth perspective is posted from what I as a gay individual have lived and "know" to be true.

Sure, we both have a different point of view and I won’t filter mine, but I have not and never will bash all Christians or any other religion or way of life. I will, however call to task individuals and fringe groups who deny equality, civil rights, religious freedoms and equal protections to minorities. That sounds very much like it fits in the Christian construct to me.