The Bible and Love and Christians

[RedPiggy]

But I can't call James Dobson or Pat Robertson toxic.

Fine, we will.

faithfully presenting

Faithfully presenting is not nearly as faithfully REpresenting.

I really don't see how Peter and Paul tried to make Christianity about them though.

In the sense that Jesus was trying to reform Judaism and thanks to Peter and Paul, we have a whole new religion.

Also, Peter and Paul aren't NEARLY as "go with the flow" as Jesus was. Make the two P's mad and you most likely end up dead in a rather convenient story that usually made people tremble in fear. Jesus wouldn't have vaporized two old geezers for daring to want to keep some of their paycheck.

and when Paul ranks himself as the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15 - I don't think he was trying to build himself up

They both claim humility while demanding you listen to them and having little thought to anyone else. Would Jesus have talked so long that a poor guy fell asleep and killed himself by falling out a window?

The whole Bible exalts Jesus Christ and we're expressly forbidden to worship anyone else.

Read the Ten Commandments. I am to have no other God but the Creator. Well, technically, I can't exalt anyone else OVER that particular God. Early Judaism wasn't strictly monotheistic. Only the NT exalts Jesus. No one in the OT cares.

Jesus said in John

All you have to do is mention John's name. John is so far out in left field from nearly everyone else's interpretation, that it's almost pre-Gnosticism. It is the only Gospel to read like a delusional fanboy wrote it instead of someone who may have had issues but at least attempted to ground the story in reality.

Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25 also makes it pretty clear that those who truly follow Christ will enjoy eternal rewards in the eternal Heaven and those who don't truly follow Christ will suffer eternal punishment in the eternal lake of fire.

Jesus also makes it clear that the Good Shepherd will go looking for the lost sheep. God can't make goats and then gripe that they're goats. As Followers of the Way rebuked Judaism and Hellenized itself, it got more and more into threats to spread its message. This is how we can see that Jesus' message differed from His followers, who wrote these stories at a time of violent clashes with the parent religion and violent oppression by pagan outsiders. Jesus told us that if people didn't listen to you, dust off your feet and leave. No griping. No shouting. No shooting. He who is without sin cast the first stone (and that story, from what I've been reading, never happened anyway based on the earliest documents available). It's His followers who get into the "listen to us or BUUUUUURRRRRNNNNNN."

And the worst part is that they put those words in Jesus' mouth, despite the fact it is OOC for Him.

I know it's not something everyone likes to think about, but it is what Jesus said, like it or not.

I don't have to like it because I'm convinced He didn't really say it. It's OOC to the majority of His message. It fits with the self-serving needs of rebellious people ditching their parent religious group.

Jesus didn't come just to be a religious leader or teacher or philosopher or rabble-rouser or anything else but Savior and Messiah.

Messiah is not a divine title. All it means is showing us the Light, as it were, something any prophet, king, etc could do. King David was called a Messiah. The original meaning of the term is not what current Christian theology says it is.

He came to die and rise again so we could have salvation from sins

I have yet to see why God was perfectly capable of forgiving sins elsewhere and somehow it doesn't really count. We have at least two people in the OT who were so righteous they got to skip death completely. Christianity seems to have no answers about those people other than to claim Jews were lying in their own books.

 

[frogboy4]

But I can't call James Dobson or Pat Robertson toxic.

Fine, we will.

Amen! Those vipers preach to the choir while condescending and alienating others rather than respecting to agree to disagree or live and let be. That's what makes them toxic.

As to legislation, well, I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who said that you can't legislate public morality- people must choose how they want to live.

Preventing two souls from getting married because they happen to be of the same sex is legislating morality and is exactly what's wrong with the leaders of the Christain movement. It's not enough to worship freely, but they also have to force gay men and women to live half-lives because of their views and that's just not right. No worries. It will change.

Fasten your seatbelts for the rant I've never quite made on Muppet Central. Here goes...

There is never a good time for change. The hornets’ nest has been disturbed overseas and we’ll be at war for years to come. Gay soldiers will be able to serve openly and honestly in America’s armed services, phased in over this year, and that's a great thing. Many other countries have already had that policy for years and we need all that we can get right now! No soldier is supposed to fraternize (participate in sexual activity) unless on leave so their sexual orientation should not matter. Desegregation isn’t easy, but that’s not an adequate excuse to prevent it from happening. Southern schools were integrated in the 60’s and the nation’s children were in the middle of the violence, but we can’t live in fear of bigotry then or now. Separate is not equal. I bring this up because gay marriage and other rights are now more likely to follow.

The “Ward & June Cleaver” idea of marriage is a relatively modern invention. The word “marriage” derives from the 13th century Middle English “mariage” that comes from the French “marier” that is ultimately derived from the Latin “marītāre”. French, huh? Well the Fox Newsies should definitely be against it! (I’m just joking because Bill O'Reilly, Glen Beck, Sean Hannity and the rest of the gang there notoriously love ragging on the French.) My point is "Civil Unions", other terminology or funky-strange makeshift contract are not the same thing. We deserve the same marriage right and it will happen.

With or without the label, marriage has never been an exclusively religious institution throughout human history. Couples have been in religious marriages, arranged marriages and secular marriages. The definition has always reflected regional customs and cultures. This is what has some neoconservatives and zealots frightened every time gays gain any of the most basic of civil rights. One can respectfully disagree with gays due to religious or any other reason, but that should not give anyone the right to prevent our culture from living and thriving. I’m not keen about Christian indoctrination of kids, but that’s none of my business either and it shouldn’t be. That is and always should be up to the family unit.

Active gay prejudice isn’t just fear-based ignorance or a difference of perspective. It’s about political power to achieve promotion on the backs of minorities. It’s also about money. The days are numbered for religious organizations that both take federal dollars and practice discrimination with them. Basically the Catholic Church probably can’t continue to deny gays to adopt from them if they are in-part federally funded. I’ve visited the Vatican and can tell you it is stunning and also one of many examples of their great wealth. They don’t need Federal dollars to do what they do. Just the tax breaks that they and other non-profits should have, of course. Also, the advancement of gay rights has nothing to do with churches performing sanctioned gay marriages if they disagree with us. That has never been in the cards. That’s protected and always should be.

The reality is that perpetuating gays' denial of civil rights is a method of justifying the prejudice toward gays in front of one’s family, children and peers at a time when that practice is appearing more absurd. No- it won’t lead to sibling marriage, exploitative polygamy, livestock wedlock or any other insulting craziness commonly used to confuse the point and perpetuate legislated bigotry.

Why the frog can’t we all have freedoms and get along without Prop 8 supporting Catholics and Mormons denying rights to gay families? Why is it that I feel the most persecution from the Christians? That's the original topic of this thread - The perceived persecution and bullying of gay youth by Christians and other groups. We should either share or keep our eyes on our own lives and our hands to ourselves. They still teach that in Kindergarten. Maybe we should all be reintroduced to that concept later in life.

/All-inclusive freedom-for-all rant over.

 

[frogboy4]

Just to be clear, I know many Christians. The ones who are my friends are less focussed the next life and more concerned with how they treat people in this one. As am I.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Why the frog can’t we all have freedoms and get along without Prop 8 supporting Catholics and Mormons denying rights to gay families? Why is it that I feel the most persecution from the Christians?

It's never been only The Catholic Church or Christianity that holds these views. Many other religions do as well, and sometimes in a much more violent way. Yet it's only Christianity that gets criticized. That's not fair either.

I am not against gay rights, but I do get tired of only one religion getting all the criticism. At least in this country people have the right and opportunity to campaign for change. The same can't be said for other parts of the world.

And not all Christians (or people of any religion) are against gay marriage. So stereotyping of any kind isn't accurate. (Not saying you're going that, but the idea is far too prevalent in the media).

 

[beatnikchick300]

I'm a Buddhist, so I don't really adhere to the Christian Bible. However, I'm definitely all for the idea of people being decent to one another, and loving their neighbors, and other messages of Christianity.

On a side note, I think that no matter what religion (or lack thereof) you are, everyone could benefit from reading different religious texts (not just the Bible, but the Koran, Hindu and Buddhist teachings, and so forth).

 

[Slackbot]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, and have felt this way for years.

If word coult accurately reflected strength of convicion, I would go on for a couple of thousand words. However, you've already said it quite well.

I look forward to the day when it will no longer be acceptable to discriminate against gay, bi, trans, etc. people. When people will no longer see it as a moral issue or a disease to be cured, but a simple fact of life.

 

[frogboy4]

It's never been only The Catholic Church or Christianity that holds these views. Many other religions do as well, and sometimes in a much more violent way. Yet it's only Christianity that gets criticized. That's not fair either.

I am not against gay rights, but I do get tired of only one religion getting all the criticism. At least in this country people have the right and opportunity to campaign for change. The same can't be said for other parts of the world.

And not all Christians (or people of any religion) are against gay marriage. So stereotyping of any kind isn't accurate. (Not saying you're going that, but the idea is far too prevalent in the media).

The curtain was pulled back long ago to reveal that the architects of Proposition 8 were primarily elders from the Mormon and Catholic church, so that's why they get the criticism for denying equal rights for gay marriage. What they did isn't fair, but calling them on it is. However, I agree that calling every individual Catholic, Mormon or Christian on that practice is certainly not fair and I admit to having friends who can't make the distinction. As for other religions beating up on gays, you're right. But America's Muslims aren't on this political bandwagon and I can't really speak for the political climate in the rest of the world. But in this country there are so many religious folk who believe that by giving gays rights that God will send a terrorist attack, a plague of locusts or something bizarre. That’s the brand of superstitious religion I can live without.

Also, 19 years ago today the world lost the talented Mr. Richard Hunt. His accomplisments and inspiration live on and I believe he's smiling on us from wherever he is. I miss him!

 

[CensoredAlso]

The curtain was pulled back long ago to reveal that the architects of Proposition 8 were primarily elders from the Mormon and Catholic church, so that's why they get the criticism for denying equal rights for gay marriage. What they did isn't fair, but calling them on it is.

I certainly don't object to them being called on it. What I objected to is that every other religion never is.

But in this country there are so many religious folk who believe that by giving gays rights that God will send a terrorist attack, a plague of locusts or something bizarre. That’s the brand of superstitious religion I can live without.

Again, not defending that. I'm just saying there's a difference between groups that simply talk prejudice, and groups that actually engage in violence. The U.S. isn't perfect, but it does not legally authorize violence against gays (and that includes religious members of the government). Again, can't say that for the rest of the world.

Also, 19 years ago today the world lost the talented Mr. Richard Hunt. His accomplisments and inspiration live on and I believe he's smiling on us from wherever he is. I miss him!

Indeed, and don't forget to leave a message on his Find a Grave tribute page :

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=8600308

 

[frogboy4]

Lovely tribute!

Again, not defending that. I'm just saying there's a difference between groups that simply talk prejudice, and groups that actually engage in violence. The U.S. isn't perfect, but it does not legally authorize violence against gays (and that includes religious members of the government). Again, can't say that for the rest of the world.

I agree. However violence is not the only way to harm a person. There is much emotional abuse by way of bigotry that some religious folk feel justified inflicting on gays through not only words and attitude, but also denial of equal protections and civil rights. Even though I was raised Christian and perfectly understand their theology - - I don't agree with it and much of Christian society (not necessarily the individuals) has been directly adversarial to my growth as an individual. That's not okay.

Equal rights are not special rights, but they have been painted as such by many zealots. Many people feel it's their right to clip my wings because I'm a gay person. Some cite religious justification and others just plain don't like gay people. Many Christians will widely be painted with the same brush until enough of them vocalize their opposition to the much more public tactics of leaders like James Dobson and Pat Robertson by telling them to leave us to our own lives without their arbitrary limitations.

We all have values and we all should be tolerant of one another’s' differences - both gays and Christians and also the many other kinds of people who live in this country and on this planet. We are all earthlings!

 

[CensoredAlso]

Lovely tribute!

Yeah it's actually a very nice website and Richard's page is frequently updated with fans' tribute.

I agree. However violence is not the only way to harm a person.

I understand and I agree that emotional abuse should not be minimized. I guess what I'm saying is that in general, we as Americans don't always realize how fortunate we are (despite our problems), because we haven't had to live through what peoples of more violently oppressive nations and governments do on a daily basis.

As a woman for instance, I have had to deal with emotional discrimination on numerous occasions, and it's horrible, it shouldn't be minimized. But on the other hand I'm grateful I don't live in a country where it's legal to stone women in the streets.