Double Standards, anyone?

[Super Scooter]

Since when is religion an acceptable prejudice?

Lately, I've noticed alot of very hateful, disrespectful comments aimed towards religious people on this forum. These same kind of comments would not be tolerated were they made of races or a person's sexual orientation.

Please note, I'm not writing this to promote religion, or to condone the actions of anyone. I recognize the truth in some of what has been said, but when a person is not allowed to express himself as equally as anyone else, something has to be done. I hate an injustice, and hate to see such awful comments being left about anyone. I see that happening now, and call on all of you to please put an end to it.

Thank you. You may now begin muffining this thread.

 

[D'Snowth]

Super Scooter, stuff like this happens at EVERY forum, not just here.

I HAVE noticed though, there some people here seem to have learned their lesson about being too "fanatic" regarding religion in their posts, but some have yet to learn, and I think it still may take a while at that.

It's not as big a problem here at MC, because most of us here are civilized and mature to the point where nothing "legal" with the moderating staff has to be done to prevent this from happening...

It's been worse at other forums, including one that I've moderated in the past - there were two sides dividing the forum: one side felt the need to reference God or The Bible or religion in generate if prompted in conversation, while the other side felt the need to bash the others for their religion. It got so ridiculous to the point that religious (and political) discussion in general was forbidden at the forum to avoid these disputes happening again, though the sad truth was that the ones who felt the need to bash the religious members were actually the assistant administrator and the girlfriend he brainwashed into his image, so they really weren't setting a good example for the forum all the way around.

MC has really just fallen apart in recent years, which is why I left initially a while back... the only reason I returned is because I was embarrassed by the whole "Save Our Snowth" thread to bring me back, and it seems like nothing has changed as much as I would have hoped... I even still remember here a few months ago when it seemed like Phil was closing threads right and left because of a little issue that erupted in those threads... it got so bad to the point that people were actually pleading for him to stop closing threads all the time.

Now then, as far as religion is concerned, I personally feel that it IS best to NOT bring it up on a public forum like this, as not everybody is going to agree on certain views, faiths, beliefs, etc, and as such, SOMEBODY in the discussion is going to be offended, one way or another, whether it's the religious person being offended by a non-religious person bashing religion or God, or if it's the non-religious person being offended by references to religion in general.

Didn't we learn anything from Linus in It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!? There are three things that one should never discuss with company - religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin.

My bottom line point is this - when your on an open forum like this, simply try to avoid religious aspects in the discussion altogether - God's not going to banish you to **** if you do.

 

[Super Scooter]

Now then, as far as religion is concerned, I personally feel that it IS best to NOT bring it up on a public forum like this, as not everybody is going to agree on certain views, faiths, beliefs, etc, and as such, SOMEBODY in the discussion is going to be offended, one way or another, whether it's the religious person being offended by a non-religious person bashing religion or God, or if it's the non-religious person being offended by references to religion in general.

I agree that this isn't the place for religious discussion, but other issues should not be discussed either, and are inapropriate for such a place. Yet such topics are not always discouraged.

My initial frustration comes from religion being brought up in threads that are not religious. Religion being bashed in threads where no religious issues were raised. Religion being frowned upon and torn apart, but other controversial issues being praised, and if anyone dares to disagree, he is attacked. I don't believe I've been a victim of this, but I see the fear people have to openly express themselves.

I don't like it when discussions on a Muppet forum turn to politics or religion or what-have-you. But I just hope people will be tolerant of each other, and if you preach tolerance, also practice it.

 

[RedPiggy]

I've noticed discussion regarding certain ideological flavors of religion that haven't been too positive. My feeling is that the people who are offended by non-members of these particular flavors of religion are the very people quick to wag their fingers at certain other groups. They want to be quick with the "sorry, but I feel you're a dirty rotten sinner", but can't take the "sorry, but I feel you're irrational". Not all members of a particular religion were lumped together. It seems pretty clear that only certain segments that, at best, are a little too focused on righteousness than on "tolerance" were getting the most jabs.

That's the problem with free speech ... you (general "you", not a specific "you) can wag your finger at someone, but they get to wag theirs right back.

I don't think there's been "prejudice" of any sort. Those overgeneralizing the religious are quick to hear from members who don't feel a certain way. And yet those who want the right to religiously tsk-tsk certain groups feel victimized when criticized. We should guard against confusing disagreement with persecution and discrimination.

 

[frogboy4]

Since when is religion an acceptable prejudice?

Lately, I've noticed alot of very hateful, disrespectful comments aimed towards religious people on this forum. These same kind of comments would not be tolerated were they made of races or a person's sexual orientation.

Please note, I'm not writing this to promote religion, or to condone the actions of anyone. I recognize the truth in some of what has been said, but when a person is not allowed to express himself as equally as anyone else, something has to be done. I hate an injustice, and hate to see such awful comments being left about anyone. I see that happening now, and call on all of you to please put an end to it.

Thank you. You may now begin muffining this thread.

By nature Christianity is an evangelical religion that requires sharing one's faith and I get that, but there is a time, place and context for that. The issue is one of a heavy hand vs. the light touch. Christians have a majority in the Western world, and should employ more sensitivity to others. It seems to be that particular religion that cries foul the most when asked to do so. I don’t commonly hear it from any others.

There are wonderful members here, Kevin our moderator is a great example of this, which have no trouble mentioning deep Christian roots and how it shades their views in an upstanding and respectable way and without the quoting of scriptures at the drop of a hat. This place has Christian-based threads that are best for that sort of in-depth proselytizing.

Personally, I'm a gay fellow. I grew up in the Christian church and reject much of the texts because I personally find it incongruent to common sense. However – I have seen wonderful things it has done in people's lives. It has turned them around in amazing ways. I have also seen the tentacles of certain Christians and popular Christian-based churches squeeze the joy out of people I care about in ways both heinous and subtle. I could fill a public library with the real horror stories of friends and members of my extended gay family. Every single one of them would make any compassionate person cry no matter what their beliefs. It's up to the individual Christian to be the best representative of their chosen faith rather than to agitate those who disagree. There should be perspective on what real persecution is.

For every Pat Robertson on television there are dozens of real-world examples of thoughtful Christians in the world trying to make it better without allocating sin and condemning deeds. It's kind of an eyes-on-you-own-paper and hands-to-yourself sort of thing.

There’s a cloak of anonymity on forums that cause people to type things they wouldn’t normally say. I’m the opposite. I’m actually much more restrained here than in person, but my tongue-in-cheek tone doesn’t always come across way it should on the stark white backdrop of a forum page.

In a nutshell – I’m a gay fellow fine with Christians as long as their beliefs don’t knock on my door and tell me how to live my life. I reciprocate the same sentiment to them even though I disagree with their beliefs. I’m not interested in changing anyone’s mind. That can’t be completely said for the Christian religion because the evangelism component built-in. Gay people just happen, but Christian people make a life choice based on a much respected book

I suppose a religious person’s tolerance outlook should hinge on what their true goal is. If it’s to make people feel good about the big “JC” then being a thoughtful representative is the way to go. I will say something for the fellow, he does have some darn good initials and personally I always liked him. Just not a lot of his entourage.

I truly hope that I haven’t offended. I just believe “there is a time for everything…” like some old dude in Ecclesiastes once said. This forum always seems to go back to being religion heavy and when it does I consider leaving. If not for the support from a few key members and what they’ve shared with me I would have left Muppet Central long ago.

 

[Drtooth]

I don't have any problem with religion, or lack thereof in any way... just how people go about it. Loud Mouthed jerks on both sides telling everyone what to do, and usually the people who want nothing to do with anything either way get caught up in the middle. There is a difference between the religious crackpot that's the tool of a vast corporate owned faction who wants to condemn everything there is left and right, and say that such and such is brainwashing kids, while they themselves are the victims of mass brainwashing and people who let religious text guide them to be better people, and actually carrying away messages that were actually intended.

You hear more about the former, because they have more money, they are more vocal, and they help undermine the government. The same types that actually could use all the money they receive to help feed the poor, and bring peace to inner city schools, but opt to buy political influence and make anti-social programs that spread fear and hate... basically slamming everything Jesus or anyone like that said. And while I wouldn't win Christian of the year, I like to think I subscribe to what everything's about. Help, love and peace. These are monsters that take words of love and peace and turn them around to hate, scapegoating and war.

Now, Frogboy brought up Pat Robertson... PERFECT example. When the quake in Haiti happened, did he rush to help? No! He rushed to criticize and make up "Tales from the Crypt" stories about how they're satanists and got what they deserved. And that's the LEAST Christian thing to say and do. Fear and hate... fear and hate. It's easier to control people than to get them to do good of their own free will.

Now, I could go deeper into the whole Atheists vs Religious types thing (which is a plot developed by such evil organizations to motivate their followers into thinking their religion is under attack), but I don't want to. It's not fun to discus, and I just got the main bullet point.

The fact of the matter is we both can respect each other when we find COMMON GROUND... something both religious and anti-religious people are hard pressed to do. You really never hear stories of Atheists and Christians who say "I don't agree with you're beliefs, but I respect them, and I wish the best for you."

 

[D'Snowth]

You really never hear stories of Atheists and Christians who say "I don't agree with you're beliefs, but I respect them, and I wish the best for you."

I think our former member ThatAnnouncer was a prime example of an open atheist who expressed that sort of POV towards religious people on this forum.

I also have another friend who isn't religious, but has told me that while he doesn't necessarily agree with/believe the history and text associated with Christianity, he DOES agree with a lot of the morals and values that are associated with it.

 

[Super Scooter]

I have to add to my original statement. I don't mean to strictly defend religion, or religion in general. Really, I want to see more friendliness on the forum. I try not to push my views on anyone here, but I sometimes feel rejected when I see all Christianity lumped in together as something evil. I don't believe true Christianity is, and believe that it is based on love. True Christianity, that is. I recognize that many who claim to be Christian have done some terrible things, but I should hope not to be included with them.

Jamie, I think mostly you've been very thoughtful in the way you handle conversations. I appreciate that you've expressed your views in this thread. I agree with much of what you say, and as far as what you've said in this thread, I particularly love this:

"If it’s to make people feel good about the big “JC” then being a thoughtful representative is the way to go. I will say something for the fellow, he does have some darn good initials and personally I always liked him. Just not a lot of his entourage."

Of all people, I hope I have not offended you by what I've said. I'm just looking for a little understanding. As I said before, a little more friendliness towards all from all. And I hope that I personally could live up to your above quote.

The fact of the matter is we both can respect each other when we find COMMON GROUND... something both religious and anti-religious people are hard pressed to do. You really never hear stories of Atheists and Christians who say "I don't agree with you're beliefs, but I respect them, and I wish the best for you."

And a great point. Thank you for mentioning that. I think that's what we should find here. The common ground is Muppets, eh?

 

[frogboy4]

I have to add to my original statement. I don't mean to strictly defend religion, or religion in general. Really, I want to see more friendliness on the forum. I try not to push my views on anyone here, but I sometimes feel rejected when I see all Christianity lumped in together as something evil. I don't believe true Christianity is, and believe that it is based on love. True Christianity, that is. I recognize that many who claim to be Christian have done some terrible things, but I should hope not to be included with them.

Jamie, I think mostly you've been very thoughtful in the way you handle conversations. I appreciate that you've expressed your views in this thread. I agree with much of what you say, and as far as what you've said in this thread, I particularly love this:

Of all people, I hope I have not offended you by what I've said. I'm just looking for a little understanding. As I said before, a little more friendliness towards all from all. And I hope that I personally could live up to your above quote.

And a great point. Thank you for mentioning that. I think that's what we should find here. The common ground is Muppets, eh?

I'm very glad! Sometimes I get a little prickly on an issue and this one is very close to me.

On a personal note, we get all types in supposedly liberal San Francisco, and that includes visitors who make a mission to write ugly things on signs and picket for absolutely no reason. It's their right as an American, but it's also really tacky and does not represent the whole...or probably even the majority for that matter. I’m actually one of the most religiously tolerant of my gay friends.

I usually try to combat such strange condemnations with a little bit of humor and sometimes that’s a little hard to read as intended. This guy at Syracuse University hit the nail on the head last year with his NY counter-demonstration. Most everything I say is done with somewhat of a smile. Not that I don’t have gravitas, but I just can’t take anything too seriously. We are all silly creatures! That's the point.

 

[dwmckim]

The old saying goes to stay away from discussing politics and religion. Unfortunately over the last decade or so there's been such a climax of the two becoming so deeply intertwined - when really they shouldn't be. But as the USA has become a deeply divided country in politics, so too have religious differences followed the same path.

Many times when people come down on a particular religion these days, they're mainly talking about religious "leaders" who often serve as a public face for that religion while grossly misrepresenting it and are as far removed from the countless number of regular citizens who follow a more pure and admirable version of the faith. Unfortunately for decades, the preachers and televangelists that have found their way to national audiences via television/radio have been those of the Pat Robinson ilk - those who have their own agendas that are very opposite to what their religion they're supposedly representing is about. When people in general conversation come down on Christianity, they often are talking about these false leaders who have given their faith a horrible name and not the millions worldwide led by love. In every town in every city in every state there are the most incredible preachers and religious teachers delivering wonderful messages to their churches...but they're not the ones on tv and radio on an international scale.

I have a very unique background. My parents did not raise me in a particular religion, allowing me to make my own decisions and come to my own conclusions by myself. I've gone through various stages of belief from being heavily involved with church and being a total aethiest.

Most here know i'm also a gay man and despite the Pat Robertsons of the world not only spreading the false message that gay and Christian are polar opposites but usually engage in gay bashing as their main form of fundraising, i know very well that not only are the two not mutually exclusive but also that there are large numbers of gay Christians, gay Catholics, gay Mormans, etc all around us. In fact my being gay actually brought me CLOSER to religion at one point when in my mid-20's as i became more comfortable and embracing my sexuality, i sought to start attending churches that either cater to or were made up primarily of gay members (in Phoenix there's been a very large number) - it was actually during this time that i was what i would consider my most religious being actively involved with a few of those various churches. I really wish i could have everyone that's been led to believe gay/religious are opposites attend a service at one of these churches where they would see very little difference - a large group of people coming together in the spirit of worship and love. I've also seen many churches in my area become openly welcoming of gay parishioners even if they were still a small portion of the church's makeup. I was even brought in as a "ringer" for one of Phoenix's biggest Catholic church's choir (though i've never been Catholic!) The choir director there was also the choir director for Phoenix's most predominant gay mens' choir which i was a part of. Most members of the church knew that the choir director was gay and also led a gay choir and most had no problem with it whatsoever.

In regards to the Bible and homosexuality - much has been grossly distorted and taken out of context in comparison with the original translations (again thanks to those who recognize fear and prejudice bring in the big bucks when they're raising funds) with most passages often used to condemn gays having little to do with contemporary gays and lesbians but specific practices, acts, and customs of the time. Several excellent books have been written on the subject by religious scholars over the years which are worth seeking out (it's been too long since i've studied this myself and can no longer offer any specific reccomendations off the top of my head.) The knowledge is out there for those who really want to explore the subject.

Respect of differences will never be easy and has to be worked on - with both sides not always fully succeeding even when they're trying to. No matter what side you're on, it's easy to forget that a group is made up of individuals - and those individuals are all unique entities that run the gamet of ethics and behavior. However if any group of people have a good chance at coming closer to patience and understanding of different backgrounds, beliefs, and worldviews, Muppet fans should have it good as that's one of their core messages. It's not easy, it's a continual learning curve and it's a never ending path but it's also far from impossible.