I miss the real Kermit

[D'Snowth]

Indeed, and that being said, you're right, Steve did have quite some flippers to fill in, and sure it was inhibiting; I remember Steve even saying he's had dreams since Jim's passing where Jim would show up while he's playing Kermit, and he would think "I shouldn't be doing this, this is Jim's character!", but Jim always said to him "No, it's fine, I'm just watching, go ahead."

 

[Drtooth]

Indeed, and that being said, you're right, Steve did have quite some flippers to fill in, and sure it was inhibiting; I remember Steve even saying he's had dreams since Jim's passing where Jim would show up while he's playing Kermit, and he would think "I shouldn't be doing this, this is Jim's character!", but Jim always said to him "No, it's fine, I'm just watching, go ahead."

I bring this up a lot, but I remember how Dave Golez was talking about how when Steve was first assigned Kermit, he just couldn't even take him out of the case. It's one thing to perform a character someone else performed... but to perform a character that was one of the signature characters of someone you were very close to that's no longer with you... that's a mighty big dilemma. I have nothing but the utmost respect for him to do that.

And as I said when someone else was performing Kermit for those 2 appearances and once at the D23 when Steve was unavailable, if I were a Muppeteer, the one character I'd hate to have to perform is Kermit. he's such a subtle, complex character that came from Jim, and that Steve had to find within himself. Same thing with Rowlf... I think Bill's doing pretty good with him, but he's the other one of Jim's signature characters.

That said, I wanna address this:

Oscar is a lot friendlier than he used to be. That's not character development, that's people being too scared of scarring children by having a mean character on the show. Same with Cookie Monster eating healthier food. Same with how Bert used to be meaner to Ernie.

I'm sorry... I don't buy the "Oscar is nicer" jazz at all. And here's why

These are 2 skits made in 1971, the show's second season
Ernie eats Bert's Ice Cream and Oscar intervenes
Ernie loses his Rubber Duckie, and Oscar helps out

I don't know about you, but I find that to be Oscar's friendliest behavior, even today. He's such a complex character that evolved out of just being a grump who tells everyone to "Go Away"... to me, he's always been grouchy, but he still genuinely cares about people, Slimey especially... but still Big Bird, Telly, and the humans. I recall a time since the 80's where he wasn't just grouchy, but he liked to spread grouchiness to others by pulling pranks. It happens... the character evolved.

As far as Cookie, they've been trying to say he eats healthy foods since the 70's, as this PSA will show. Dude eats EVERYTHING and ANYTHING... even if it's nailed down. He ate large holes out of Sesame Street in one special in the 90's.

 

[muppetinsider]

Two words:
Jim's Gone.

 

[theprawncracker]

Two words:
Jim's Gone.

Very tactfully put...

 

[Super Scooter]

I don't understand this "Steve-can-only-play-one-character-and-it's-not-Kermit-it's-Wembley-Steve's-Kermit's-arms-don't-move-right-Steve's-Kermit's-face-is-shaped-wrong-Steve's-Kermit's-this-that-and-the-other-thing" jazz.

"Kermit's arms are positioned wrong?" The clips that you offered show Kermit's arms in the exact same position! And by the way, huzzubawhanow?

"Kermit's face scrunches wrong/shaped wrong?" What? How can anyone control the shape of their hand? I suppose you expect Steve to apologize for not having has hand's surgically altered so Kermit will look 100 % perfect instead of... wait... how does Kermit look wrong? I don't get it! You very rarely see Steve do the exagerated Kermit scrunched faces that Jim did. Didja ever see the double-scrunch? The complete face distortions Jim would do with Waldorf, let alone Kermit? Yet STEVE'S go over the top?

But returning to civilized conversatin, I think the last time Kermit really got frustrated and blew up (outside of more recent and bashed productions) was in The Great Muppet Caper when he and Piggy are arguing in front of the pond. He was pretty chill in The Muppet Movie, and The Muppets Take Manhattan. Basically all of the '80s TV specials he's unflappable. I think it was just the stress of running the theater.

 

[Frogpuppeteer]

As far as Cookie, they've been trying to say he eats healthy foods since the 70's, as this PSA will show. Dude eats EVERYTHING and ANYTHING... even if it's nailed down. He ate large holes out of Sesame Street in one special in the 90's.

thank you, ive been trying to tell this to people for years, he even ate a phone and every other type of device trying to get a letter to santa.

but yes,Kermits been this way for years even during some of the Jim years

 

[Erine81981]

AH, ok, so maybe it's just a generational thing. I was born long before you guys (1974). I remember when the Muppet Show first came on the air, and I remember watching the skits on Sesame Street when Kermit would get ****** off with Grover, and when Bert looked a lot meaner, etc. Maybe that's why I have a harder time accepting the newer, cuter versions of the characters. To me, they seem like watered-down imposters, whereas to you guys, they're legit because it's how you've always known them.

I would agree with Randall here. I wasn't born the same year or around the years of the 70's but i was born in 1981. I remember all the stuff of Jim's preformences and everyone here is pretty much right. Kermit had changed. I remembered how Jim played Kermit in those years i was starting to watch Sesame Street and reruns of The Muppet Show. Steve's version of Kermit is kind alike Wembley mixed with Rizzo and it kinda gets a little weird. And i'm not just saying that that's how i see him preforming him as but there are time i kind wished he had some the same type of moments where Kermit would get mad or flirt (which he does ever so often).

When i first heard that Muppets Studio/Disney was going to be doing the Wizards of Oz speical and all. All i kept hoping was that Kermit would do more stuff with Fozzie knowing that Kermit and Fozzie are the best of friends. And later on when i saw Fozzie with Kermit on a talk show instead of Piggy or Gonzo i was thrilled. But i love to see Kermit and Fozzie more and i don't know Kermit with Fozzie are kind more funny but i knoiw it would be more funnier if Fozzie would give Kermit more like pokes at him for Kermit to bite back or something. It to me would seem more like Kermit's character but i too have gotten a little more comfortable with Steve's preformence.

 

[SkeksisGirl]

I'll admit that it does seem that the Muppets have become too... well let's face it... Disney. Cute and cuddly and not with the snark that everyone loves, but wanna know my opinion?

As long as it isn't anything like Muppet Wizard of Oz... I'm happy.

Yes, Steve isn't Jim. He'll never BE Jim, and wanting him to be Jim just leads to badness.

Have I seen some of Wembley shine through in Kermit? Yes, the time that stood out for me the most was in MTI where Piggy's rope breaks and Kermit grabs her and has the spazzed out eyes. When I saw it I was like "Wembley in the house!" But you know what? I liked that, for some reason. Most likely because Wembley was always my favorite Fraggle.

For the Kermit/Fozzie BFFs, they were, because Jim and Frank are BFFs. That's one of the reasons there's so much Rizzo/Gonzo because last I checked Dave and Steve were BFFs.

Things change, and all we can really hope for is that they change for the better. The latest skit on Youtube shows us that maybe we'll be getting what we want.

I mean personally, I loathe Pepe. I hate him for some reason, but meh... I'll live.

I think it was incredibly brave of Steve to step into Kermit's flippers, and when he wasn't there for those two episodes I panicked. I was worried it would have been my 10th Birthday all over again.

I dunno, I guess I'm just happy to have some Muppet stuff coming my way.

 

[Convincing John]

I'm trying to remember off the top of my head (and failing) but did we ever really see "frustrated/angry" Kermit outside of the Muppet Show?

Ever see Grover trying to sell him something? LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYvHFzB5BdQ

Convincing John

 

[D'Snowth]

I mean personally, I loathe Pepe. I hate him for some reason, but meh... I'll live.

Well, to me, it's kind of like Pepe is to the Muppets as Elmo is to SST.

They're both kind of the new kids on the block who suddenly get a lot of attention, and become a part of the core group so fast as if they've been a part since the beginning.

Yes, I am aware that the red monster was around since the beginning, but the character of Elmo (that we know) didn't really surface until the 80s, and didn't really hit his stride until the 90s. It's almost the same with Pepe, have a bit of a mediocre part of MT, but then after a while, became a part of the group, and now it's kind of hard to imagine the Muppets without him, like for some these days, it's hard to imagine SST without Elmo.

But in all honesty, I'll take Pepe over Elmo anyday.

Now, getting back to the subject about the characters seemingly mellowed and watered down as of late, I think it's just the opposite with Pepe, in fact, compared to the other characters, he's rather "raunchy" - still being a kid at the time, I was shocked he said "It's going to suck" in IAVMMCM, because when you're a kid, to use "suck" like that is almost as bad as saying a swear word (at least with my old-fashioned parents who sheltered me greatly that I had to learn what things like sex and masturbation are through school). Then last year when he was on Craig Ferguson (ugh), and Craig asked him what he liked best about women? "Breasts", Pepe replies without hesistation. Even talking about some footage he's watched from like the Discovery Channel or something about the aquatic world, he found to be "Scary as h-e-l-l!"

When I think about it, in a way, it's kind of like something Jim tried to avoid from the start - being typecasted as strictly a children's entertainer, and because puppets are usually aimed at, and are associated with children, my thinking is that these companies who end up buying them try to make sure they're as "kid friendly" as possible, even though I wouldn't consider a movie like IAVMMCM to be completely kid-friendly (I mean, would you want a little kid to see Scooter cage dancing?) Jim always tried to make sure the Muppets could address all audiences - clever wordplay and banter that grownups could laugh at because they actually get it, while the kids would laugh simply because of the absurdity of it all... but maybe that vision has drifted away, and again, these companies are trying to make sure the Muppets are aimed mostly at children.

But again, there's still aspects that haven't been completely softened down and such, and again, I believe Pepe's a fine example of that.