The New Movie: The Muppets

[Drtooth]

I was wondering about Pepe too. He has become one of the major Muppet stars since 'Muppets From Space' so I'm assuming he would be, but maybe you're right about this being a 'back to the beginning' thing. Though if that's the case, they ought to make a 'Sesame Street' movie without Elmo. Lol.

I'm beginning to wonder if the back to the beginning isn't so much a force for why they didn't use Pepe, so much as a force for why they aren't all that familiar with him. Though, I still say, he single handedly saved every movie he was ever in, especially MFS.

I don't think Elmo in Grouchland was so much a bad film because it focused entirely on Elmo, it just wasn't a great film because it felt so artificial and they added too much Elmo's World style fourth walls, disrupting the flow of the movie. If another SS movie were EVER to get made, Elmo would no doubt be in it, but I think the next one should focus on Grover (since he's had a resurgence of popularity thanks to Eric). But I doubt we're going to see Sesame Street try a legit theatrically released film in the near future.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Let the Muppets be inventive again.
I'm afraid they'll also limit themselves in terms of creativity.

I don't think they're trying to stagnate the Muppets' creativity. It sounds more like they're trying to channel the original three movies, which were ultimately the most successful (that is basically what Segal said early on).

And the idea of a character like Pepe having a cameo isn't so unusual, even in the original films some characters only got a few lines. It such a large cast afterall.

If this movie ends up being good, it would be a shame if some fans dismiss it just because of one character, who probably isn't completely disapearing anyway.

 

[Drtooth]

It's part of what I see as the biggest potential problem for the Muppets going forward. From Sam and Friends through Jim's death, and even into MT for that matter, the Muppets were always a very fluid group. Characters were constantly phased in and out, and even one-shot characters became main characters when they worked. But the Muppets need another outlet in order to thrive. The Muppet Show happened because of the skits done on Ed Sullivan and other shows, most of which featured puppets that audiences didn't already know. I'd love to see videos on the Muppets Studio YouTube channel that don't necessarily feature the core characters. Give Eric, Matt and David the opportunity to be more than the replacements for Frank, Jerry and Richard. Let them develop new characters. Let Bill work more with Pepe, Bobo, Carl and whatever other of his characters can capture an audience. Let the Muppets be inventive again.

I'm really excited for the movie, and especially excited to see some classic characters come back. But the idea of a "core group" of Muppets, even in Jim's day, is something of a myth. If they limit themselves in terms of characters, I'm afraid they'll also limit themselves in terms of creativity.

I'm sorry, but really... if we don't have the classic characters, we hear nothing but whining about how they aren't there, and we always blame the new characters who are created to fill in the gaps. look at Muppets Tonight. So many people just complained about the lack of classic characters (many of which were yet to be recast permanently... even temporarily), and hated half the new characters and new segments featuring them.

So what do we wind up with, either we have a batch of new characters causing us to say "What happened to X" or people recast to continue these roles that get a "Oh, that's what they sound like?" Personally, I think all of them have came a long way since they started... Matt was hand picked and recommended by Jerry, David has been doing Richard's roles for sometime (as early as the Cosby Show, where he was Sweetums), and Eric has come along nicely. As for Bill's Rowlf, well, Bobo was sort of a tribute to Jim's characters (said so in an interview) so there's a little Bobo in Rowlf now, but not all that much. A character IS a very personal thing.

Again, when it comes to this specific script, the writers are more familiar with classic characters. I cannot stress that enough. Same reason why the Muppet Show Comic Book only had the Muppet Show characters. So, they might have just that much of a handle on the characters, guiding the performers, likewise the performers guide the writing. I don't know how much of the Muppets is scripted, and what's improv, but let's not forget, without improv, Piggy wouldn't HiYAAAH, Bert wouldn't faint, and half the characters wouldn't be the way we see them today. Maybe Bill added in a little more Pepe in those scenes, maybe the performers guided the writers for Pepe... we won't know until the film is out. And even then, that's not to say Pepe won't be in any future projects.

 

[terrimonster]

I don't think they're trying to stagnate the Muppets' creativity. It sounds more like they're trying to channel the original three movies, which were ultimately the most successful (that is basically what Segal said early on).

And the idea of a character like Pepe having a cameo isn't so unusual, even in the original films some characters only got a few lines. It such a large cast afterall.

If this movie ends up being good, it would be a shame if some fans dismiss it just because of one character, who probably isn't completely disapearing anyway.

No, of course they're not trying to stagnate creativity. I'm just afraid it will be a side effect. I kind of mixed my thoughts on the current state of the Muppets in general with thoughts on the possible limited use of Pepe in the film (again I'm reminded why "The Muppets" vs. the Muppets will cause confusion in conversation). I'm very excited for the movie, Pepe or not. I think limiting Bill's talents by restricting him to others' characters could prevent the movie from being "all it could be," but not from being good or even great.

The rest of what I wrote was really about the future of "the brand" apart from the movie. I hope the Muppets aren't hamstrung by an inability or unwillingness to branch out and experiment.

Edit:

I'm sorry, but really... if we don't have the classic characters, we hear nothing but whining about how they aren't there, and we always blame the new characters who are created to fill in the gaps. look at Muppets Tonight. So many people just complained about the lack of classic characters (many of which were yet to be recast permanently... even temporarily), and hated half the new characters and new segments featuring them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the old characters shouldn't be there. I even get the reason why this movie is old-character focused. I'm just not seeing ways in which the performers are going to get to try new characters in the near future. I think they all do fantastic jobs with the roles they've inherited, but the Muppets' best chance for continued staying power is if they're also allowed to branch out.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I'm sorry, but really... if we don't have the classic characters, we hear nothing but whining about how they aren't there, and we always blame the new characters who are created to fill in the gaps. look at Muppets Tonight. So many people just complained about the lack of classic characters (many of which were yet to be recast permanently... even temporarily), and hated half the new characters and new segments featuring them.

Well call me crazy but it makes sense for fans to want to see the characters who were responsible for the best years of the franchise.

I didn't mean for that to sound as snarky as it did, btw, lol. Just saying.

As for Muppets Tonight, I only saw one episode and it actually featured a few of of the classic characters. I still didn't like it. Bottom line it was the writing.

 

[dwmckim]

I know some people feel "The Muppets" (i have a feeling this is going to become forum-netiquette: placing "The Muppets" in quotes or italics when discussing the movie vs. the troupe...i really hope they rename the dang thing) is shunning the newer characters but at the same time - look at how many classic minor characters will be in it...ones that we NEVER thought we'd see again or would be rebuilt/refurbished or appear on the big screen - i'd say that right there is a huge tribute to the large cast of glorious characters that have made up the Muppet menagerie. This seems to be a good acknowledgement of How They Got Here and which is what a successful retrospective does - give the past history its due and uses that as a springboard from which to develop further and gets people excited about the journey.

I just say RELAX! Whatever Muppets do or don't appear in the movie does not mean they won't be in other projects! This film will be very Muppety - and we'll all be blown away when we're there in the theatre and seeing the surprises the film unleashes on us...i mean right now we're all going by bits and pieces...small photos that have leaked from the shooting - imagine how much we DON'T know yet! Just enjoy the ride.

As long as there's been Muppet freaks, there's been people who watch each movie with their own mental scorecard - "oh so-and-so's not in this so i guess i don't like it". This isn't just the post-Jim projects either...people get upset that Link's never had a speaking line in a Muppet movie. Or that Bo got cut from TMTM. You can't please everyone and there's only so much you can do in a movie. But it seems like they're trying their furry little hearts out to really give the fans something special.

 

[terrimonster]

I want to amend, revise and clarify my original comments in this thread. I got distracted from my point and wandered into my hopes for the Muppets aside from my hopes for "The Muppets." I'll be disappointed if Pepe isn't in the movie very much. It won't dampen my enthusiasm for the movie, and I don't think it will take away from the quality of the movie. In fact, I won't be all that disappointed by the relative absence of the character. I will be disappointed on behalf of Bill Barretta. Bill Barretta joined the Muppets as an originator of several new characters, a few of which have stuck. That's a huge accomplishment post-Henson. I feel bad for him that after all he's done in terms of creativity and character development, he's going to be largely stuck performing someone else's characters for this movie.

I'm sure it's a great honor to be trusted with Jim Henson's characters such as Rowlf, The Swedish Chef and Dr. Teeth. But at the same time, there's limited freedom for creativity when taking on an established role and essentially doing an impression. As Drtooth said, Pepe saved his share of Muppet projects. Some of this was due to writing, but I think a lot of it was due to Bill's talent as a performer. Of his most recognizable original characters, Pepe is the only one that could really work here. It wouldn't make much sense to have a big role for Carl, and putting Bobo and Rowlf together only draws the obvious vocal comparisons.

Bill Barretta is the only current core Muppeteer to rise and thrive in the post-Henson era with, and on the merit of, his original characters. I don't think the Muppets would be as strong as they are if not for him. So just in the context of "The Muppets," it would be nice if out of recognition for Bill's tremendous contributions to the Muppets, his biggest original character got some significant screen time, in addition to the roles he's taken over. If not, it isn't going to take away from the film or dampen my desire to see it.

 

[dwmckim]

You know the saying, "There are no small roles, only small actors?" Well, when it comes to the Muppets, there may be small Muppets in stature but as Pepe so famously says he's not a shrimp, he's a king prawn. Ergo, "There are no small roles, only King Prawns"...meaning maybe Pepe or others may still only end up with three lines but when it comes to The Muppets, it's quality not quantity. Even if Pepe ends up with three lines, they may still end up the best, funniest, applause-generating lines in the movie.

A lot of my fave Muppets are the minor supporting characters. Crazy Harry and Marvin Suggs will never have starring roles but their small appearances here and there always make me light up like a Christmas tree even though they almost always are just cameo appearances. When it comes to the Muppets, screentime doesn't affect their effectiveness or enjoyability.

 

[terrimonster]

... Even if Pepe ends up with three lines, they may still end up the best, funniest, applause-generating lines in the movie.

A lot of my fave Muppets are the minor supporting characters. Crazy Harry and Marvin Suggs will never have starring roles but their small appearances here and there always make me light up like a Christmas tree even though they almost always are just cameo appearances. When it comes to the Muppets, screentime doesn't affect their effectiveness or enjoyability.

Good point. A couple of good lines could make it feel like he's one of the stars, even in what otherwise amounts to a minor role. I think most actors would take one memorable line over 500 forgettable ones.

 

[frogboy4]

It does appear that they've minimized Pepe's role. I hope this isn't true because he's helped keep the Muppets connected to modern audiences for over a decade and he's certainly paid his dues. I think they can plant Pepe firmly in the ensemble while giving Rowlf and Scooter more to do than the beloved prawn.

My Muppet geekdom feels this is the appropriate hierarchy of Muppets:

1. Kermit
2. Fozzie
3. Miss Piggy
4. Gonzo
5. Scooter
6. Rowlf
7 & 8. Pepe & Rizzo
9 & 10. Bunsen & Beaker
11-15. Classic Electric Mayhem
16. Sam Eagle
17 & 18. Statler & Waldorf
19. Swedish Chef
20. Robin
21 + the Muppet monsters, extras and secondary characters.

This is just my take on it, but I think a lot of fans would roughly agree here.