It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Appreciation Thread!

[Ilikemuppets]

I found a lot of the Jim spirit missing in VMX and that's why I think it got a lot of grief.

Well to be honest, there seemed to be a lot of that spirit missing sense Jim's unfortunate pass. You could tell it in MCC...

 

[frogboy4]

Well to be honest, there seemed to be a lot of that spirit missing sense Jim's unfortunate pass. You could tell it in MCC...

I couldn't agree more. There has been a sort of void left by Jim that seems to have gotten better just recently. The Muppets have never been given such a chance to grow and thrive as they have now.

MCC is rather gloomy. I like it, but favor MTI. The reason I liked VMX so much is that it brought the characters back to the show and the theater. They weren't playing characters anymore.

 

[Baby Gonzo]

Well to be honest, there seemed to be a lot of that spirit missing sense Jim's unfortunate pass. You could tell it in MCC...

I agree that they just aren't the same, but I don't think that stops them for being decent movies in their own right. It's like comparing apples and oranges. They're both fruit, but both have different flavors.


I know its hard... impossible, even for one to judge Jim-era Muppet projects to more current Muppet projects, but I try to look at each with different eyes.

 

[Drtooth]

MCC is rather gloomy. I like it, but favor MTI. The reason I liked VMX so much is that it brought the characters back to the show and the theater. They weren't playing characters anymore.

Not to mention the fact that the muppets were actually the stars of VMC. I really do like MTI because they really had a great zaniness level the entire movie through. MCC basically turned into (as I've said a hundredy billion times by now) A Michael Cain Christmas Carol with special guest stars The Muppets. Especially the Ghost of Christmas past segments... other than Fozziwig's party (the only thing I feel was Muppety in the entire film) we basically just had long segments of Belle singing to Scrooge and stuff like that. I DID love the Ghost of Christmas Present, though.

I think the problem with VMX is that they had so many Simpsons-esque jokes (like the odd Crock Hunter segment), and a lot of it became extremely dated and more like, again, the Simpsons than the Muppets (especially Sam the Eagle's role.. popping up and saying something in a funny accent- exactly the same treatment as Sideshow Mel). The poorly dubbed kung fu movie segment was funny, but totally unnecessary. And the rest of it seemed like a commercial for NBC....

BUT it was back to the funny, goofy, wacky Muppets that were missing in MCC. We had some nice gags (the Chef and Beaker incoherently arguing with each other) and a great call back to the first movie. I think it works better as a TV special than a true movie, myself.

I will say, looking back, I was disappointed that none of the muppets interacted with William H Macy.....

 

[peyjenk]

Not trying to be a jerk here, but let's try to remember... this is supposed to be a positive thread to discuss the positive things about VMX...

 

[Telly]

The only negative thing I can say about this movie is the lack of songs. Otherwise I loved it all around!

 

[RedPiggy]

It was a little too somber and that threw the usual Muppety feeling off-balance.

Yes, it was somber (God knows I have a hard time writing "Muppety" fics). However, to be fair, they were going for the "It's a Wonderful Life" theme, and that movie ain't exactly a comedy.

They also needed to be more inclusive of younger audience members that seemed to drift off or become too disturbed by the goings on.

Of course, if they did, they'd be writing letters to ....

Ms. Bitterman was... and for that matter, most of the human characters were a mixed bag. She was a fun character but just TOO evil for the point if being evil and greed. It's as though they were trying too hard to make people hate her.

I agree she should have been given some sort of REASON to be so darn hateful. However, aside from that being fanfic fodder, they were probably trying to avoid the whole "villain didn't get that toy when he was a kid and now he's gonna destroy Xmas" thing that's far too cliche on Xmas movies.

I thought Daniel was a sweet character though and I liked his interactions with Kermit.

So did I, though he ran the risk of having the exact opposite problem Bitterman had. He was almost TOO sweet. However, you need someone like that so that Kermit's outburst can gain even more intensity.

I thought it was sweet how he was the first character after Fozzie's speech to say that he would forego his salary. He's come a long way since the early Muppet Show days when he was more interested in money and taking advantage of the fact "his uncle owned the theater."

He was the first to feel ashamed after Fozzie's speech in the Great Muppet Caper, if I recall.

Can anybody go into great detail for me in what was wrong or right with it?

You'd get a million answers. The general theme seems to be it's too somber (and/or creepy) for the Muppets.

I'm STILL trying to figure out WHY Sam the Eagle of all people would be there

It's usual to think that ultra-conservatives secretly harbor a desire to do/believe the very things they say they hate.

why Robin (still a child in this movie, I'm assuming, although he could be a few years older than he was originally...but still a child) would be working at such a place

That one's harder. However, I don't see Bitterman caring all that much about child labor laws.

I found Piggy and Gonzo's situations to be believable, and also both sad and touching (Piggy's scene proved that Kermit really loves her, and Gonzo's was just plain depressing *hugs Gonzo* but well done).

And Rizzo's was hilarious and ultra-creepy as well. LOL....

There has been a sort of void left by Jim that seems to have gotten better just recently.

I honestly think that had Jim Henson lived a bit longer, we would have seen the same thing. Dark Crystal and Labyrinth's fates depressed the heck out of him, from what I've read. Even though I have learned to love Steve's Kermit, Kermit is still kinda portrayed as Jim's alter-ego ... and the Boss had had the wind knocked out of his sails.

(like the odd Crock Hunter segment)

Which is rather weird to watch now that he's gone. Though I personally thought it was a hilarious part of the whole Fozzie gag.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but let's try to remember... this is supposed to be a positive thread to discuss the positive things about VMX...

One can technically appreciate something and have something to say a little more in-depth than "OH,WOWILOVEITICAN'TSTANDTHEHATERS."

Anyway, why I loved it:

Despite the lack of a backstory, Bitterman is the best villain since Nicky. And that is a deep compliment from me, since I loved him more than Doc Hopper. It's a shame she was only toying with Pepe, because I actually liked the idea that Nicky actually loved Piggy. That, and I love the fanfic potential in her. Where people see little characterization, I see fanfic potential.

The theater. It looked very impressive and was more ... 3D ... and yet rather dead-on. And quite frankly, the Muppets tried the whole TV thing, but Dinosaurs did video gags better. Muppets belong in the theater.

All the references to a WHOLE lot of Muppet stuff, including a LOT of GMC ones, even if they were subtle.

The AU. Yes, it was creepy as all get out. However, we so rarely see other characters outside of Kermit's context, so it was nice (though creepy) to see sides of them that I guess existed all the time but what was flat out mentioned here.

Whoopi. Not exactly Morgan Freeman or George Burns, but I'll take her. I could have done without a reference to a criticized joke she had made at the president's expense (though I'm not exactly a fan of his). However, I liked her general attitude and the fact that after all that complaining to Daniel about not wanting to help Kermit, she was actually helping him all along in secret. Kermit, apparently, wasn't the only one who needed to grow a spine.

Dagobah. Cheap-looking (oh, how I miss the constant SW references in Muppet Babies) but funny.

Pepe. I hadn't watched a lot of Muppet's Tonight, so this was the first real exposure I had to him. I am in love. He first struck me as what Rizzo used to be in the 80s, or even a more intense Rizzo, but I can appreciate him now as his own character. He's the Bugs Bunny of the group, easily attracted by temptation but more than able to outwit his opponents at the last moment if you cross him. I'm a big admirer of quick thinkers.

Fozzie. I bet some people might use his "chase scene" as an example of the mean-spiritedness, but really, Fozzie's always suffered from low self-esteem. It's really unfortunate, because Fozzie is incredibly funny when he's not trying too hard. He is just natural comedy. I think that's why AU Fozzie ends up a pick-pocket. It represents more concretely his dependence on others to survive because he doesn't see himself as worthy of having his own life. That's why he basically uses Kermit as a crutch all through the years. He's a great character opposite Kermit, but he doesn't NEED Kermit actually. He thinks he does, but he doesn't.

I would say Club Dot is a negative, but it's hard for me to gripe about that and the Poppyfields thing in Oz because the Mayhem has always been the counter-culture thing and it's inaccurate to say that Scooter cage-dancing isn't Jim at all. If it had been Janice, I bet no one would have said a thing, because that would actually be in-character for her. And Rizzo threatened by Fear Factor can almost thank Jim, who on youtube seems to predict reality TV.

It took me a couple of viewings to really get into it, but I liked it from the first viewing, despite my jaw dropping a few times.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I would say Club Dot is a negative, but it's hard for me to gripe about that and the Poppyfields thing in Oz because the Mayhem has always been the counter-culture thing

Oh I never minded it when the Muppets did risque humor. But there are different levels, that's all.

Yes, it was somber (God knows I have a hard time writing "Muppety" fics). However, to be fair, they were going for the "It's a Wonderful Life" theme, and that movie ain't exactly a comedy.

That's a good point, both are quite somber stories in order to make the ending more touching. Christmas isn't about being blindly cheerful, but perservering against problems as well. I think the special does that well.

And I agree, as long as it's civil, there's nothing wrong with constructive comments about the show. Discussion makes for more interesting content.

 

[frogboy4]

I agree with most of that. I loved VMX, but my main gripe is the lack of musical numbers. The stage was set and the whole project was ripe for it but we got very little of that. I can't imagine what they were thinking.

 

[RedPiggy]

Oh I never minded it when the Muppets did risque humor. But there are different levels, that's all.

To me, though, Oz's Poppyfields is worse than Club Dot because at least Dot was JUST a club. It didn't have (and I concede I'm naive with drug references) the same connotations that I KNOW Poppyfields had. I know what poppies are for. I guess the dot could be some 60s LSD reference, but that's a stretch, considering it just looks like a typical nightclub/bar.