Oscars 2013

[Sgt Floyd]

I'm not trying to defend Brave or any winner. I haven't even seen Brave so I can't pass judgement on it.

 

[BobThePizzaBoy]

I'm not trying to defend Brave or any winner. I haven't even seen Brave so I can't pass judgement on it.

Yeah, my apologies. That part wasn't really a direct response to you, I just felt it necessary to post my opinions on Brave since I've brought up my resentment about it winning without really expressing any opinion on it in the thread.

 

[jvcarroll]

Yeah, my apologies. That part wasn't really a direct response to you, I just felt it necessary to post my opinions on Brave since I've brought up my resentment about it winning without really expressing any opinion on it in the thread.

(not really a spoiler, but...)

One of my biggest problems with Brave is that the Witch completely disappears from the story after the spell is cast. That renders her role completely unnecessary because the spell really could have come from anywhere.Why is she introduced at all? The fact is that she's the third very strong older female figure that could have been represented in the film that wasn't.

The Witch really is neither good nor evil. She is wisdom. She's the one who facilitates the greater understanding between the protagonist and her mother, yet like any actress of mature age in Hollywood, she is tossed aside as something needless. I'm not claiming that the Witch deserved a big part. I do believe Brave would have been a stronger film for representing three generations of strong women.

I don't think this film is allowed to be considered a champion of feminism when it is so blatantly ageist. Well, that's my perspective on it. I really didn't like the film's shoddy storytelling. The animation was beautiful, but Best Animated Picture? Bah. I call shenanigans!

 

[Drtooth]

(not really a spoiler, but...)

One of my biggest problems with Brave is that the Witch completely disappears from the story after the spell is cast. That renders her role completely unnecessary because the spell really could have come from anywhere.Why is she introduced at all? The fact is that she's the third very strong older female figure that could have been represented in the film that wasn't.

The Witch was the best part of the film. I'd say she was Miyazakian! But she disappears in the picture for a crucial plot point. I get that her disappearance was vital to one of the messages of the film. Merida did use magic to solve the situation, the situation gets worse but she has to solve it for herself. An undo spell wouldn't teach her anything... there's so much more they could have done with the witch to get the point across. And just as subtly too. It would have been funny for an astral projection of the Witch to constantly taunt Merida with cryptic hints... or at least if she showed up at the end to congratulate her for fulfilling the spell. She was the best character in the film hands down, and she and her Steve Purcell (Sam and Max creator) crow disappear entirely from the film until the Crow fulfills a brick joke at the end (which, you have to admit was pretty funny).

The problem is the story has a strong story, a great set up, and lots of potential... but the middle needed work. The evil bear wasn't established as a big enough threat (but then again, that's an alternate opening that would have lost the establishment of the family). Other than that, there's something about this film that seems completely out of Pixar's comfort zone. This seems like it could have been a smaller animated feature (something Don Bluth-esque) and it would have been no problem. Something about it being Pixar seems off. They don't have the marketable cute thing learning a lesson. They get criticized for doing it, they get criticized for not doing it. Just like Disney and the Princesses.

I quite enjoyed it more than anyone else here, though it was the weakest of the others nominated... but it's hardly the worst thing ever nominated... Here's a list. As I said before, Kon was conned every time. Happy Feet actually WON the Award, and that thing's an abomination. There is understandable shock that Paranorman should have been the academy favorite... I mean, it's a smaller, almost independent movie that deals with some pretty progressive themes about passing judgement.

 

[jvcarroll]

The Witch was the best part of the film. I'd say she was Miyazakian! But she disappears in the picture for a crucial plot point. I get that her disappearance was vital to one of the messages of the film. Merida did use magic to solve the situation, the situation gets worse but she has to solve it for herself. An undo spell wouldn't teach her anything... there's so much more they could have done with the witch to get the point across. And just as subtly too. It would have been funny for an astral projection of the Witch to constantly taunt Merida with cryptic hints... or at least if she showed up at the end to congratulate her for fulfilling the spell. She was the best character in the film hands down, and she and her Steve Purcell (Sam and Max creator) crow disappear entirely from the film until the Crow fulfills a brick joke at the end (which, you have to admit was pretty funny).

The problem is the story has a strong story, a great set up, and lots of potential... but the middle needed work. The evil bear wasn't established as a big enough threat (but then again, that's an alternate opening that would have lost the establishment of the family). Other than that, there's something about this film that seems completely out of Pixar's comfort zone. This seems like it could have been a smaller animated feature (something Don Bluth-esque) and it would have been no problem. Something about it being Pixar seems off. They don't have the marketable cute thing learning a lesson. They get criticized for doing it, they get criticized for not doing it. Just like Disney and the Princesses.

I quite enjoyed it more than anyone else here, though it was the weakest of the others nominated... but it's hardly the worst thing ever nominated... Here's a list. As I said before, Kon was conned every time. Happy Feet actually WON the Award, and that thing's an abomination. There is understandable shock that Paranorman should have been the academy favorite... I mean, it's a smaller, almost independent movie that deals with some pretty progressive themes about passing judgement.

I get what you're saying, but I still don't think the Witch's presence would have required her to reverse the spell. It would have been far more interesting if she'd have stuck around and made helpful, ambiguous remarks as Merida faced the consequences of her actions. I just don't think either director knew what they were doing and the Witch's absence really seemed like ageism to me. Women over 50 have value. It would have been nice for this movie would have shown that.

 

[Drtooth]

That's kinda reading too into it. It really seems they wanted the witch to be hands off and kinda trolly. Seems like she could have been used as a narrator or something. I kinda wish there was a big reveal at the end that the Witch didn't really go to the big witches convention or whatever wrote her out of the plot. I think the problem is they got the point across a little too subtly. Adding magic to the situation made things worse, and fixing that with more magic would defeat the purpose of the magic spell's true test. I wonder if pointing it out near the end would have been too obvious.

I really don't see the witch tagging along with Merida, since that would have defeated the whole mother daughter aspect... but I think they should have made her a trolling background presence, snickering at Merida struggling, knowing all full well things will be okay in the end. I really think that The Witch and the Crow commenting on them Statler and Waldorf style would have worked. Seems any problems with the lack of the Witch was a preproduction problem. Something tells me a making of would clear that up.

Still, I have nothing but respect for the fact they didn't pair her up with an obvious Ken Doll/Boy appeal character and she remained alone and happy at the end. Not to mention how many cliches it averts, subverts, and plays around with. I especially like how they tried to set the mother up as a well done son (in this case daughter) type character, ONLY to have her pick the very same bow she threw in the fire out and feel really bad about it. There's smart writing and concepts in the beginning and end... but that middle was underdone.

 

[jvcarroll]

That's kinda reading too into it. It really seems they wanted the witch to be hands off and kinda trolly. Seems like she could have been used as a narrator or something. I kinda wish there was a big reveal at the end that the Witch didn't really go to the big witches convention or whatever wrote her out of the plot. I think the problem is they got the point across a little too subtly. Adding magic to the situation made things worse, and fixing that with more magic would defeat the purpose of the magic spell's true test. I wonder if pointing it out near the end would have been too obvious.

I really don't see the witch tagging along with Merida, since that would have defeated the whole mother daughter aspect... but I think they should have made her a trolling background presence, snickering at Merida struggling, knowing all full well things will be okay in the end. I really think that The Witch and the Crow commenting on them Statler and Waldorf style would have worked. Seems any problems with the lack of the Witch was a preproduction problem. Something tells me a making of would clear that up.

Still, I have nothing but respect for the fact they didn't pair her up with an obvious Ken Doll/Boy appeal character and she remained alone and happy at the end. Not to mention how many cliches it averts, subverts, and plays around with. I especially like how they tried to set the mother up as a well done son (in this case daughter) type character, ONLY to have her pick the very same bow she threw in the fire out and feel really bad about it. There's smart writing and concepts in the beginning and end... but that middle was underdone.

Older women are almost always used as disposable characters so naturally the options you mention are the first go-to solutions. Maybe they would have worked, maybe they wouldn't have, but there was a greater wealth not explored. I never said that the character needed to have a large role in the picture. She didn't need to "tag along" or narrate or help with more magic or anything like that.

I do believe the Witch deserved a slightly larger presence in the picture. Maybe 2 to 5 minutes of additional screentime or a follow-up scene where Merida asks for help and the Witch gives her wisdom instead. That would have not interfered one bit with the mother-daughter dynamic. In fact, there are many ways that could have enriched it.

There's a dangerous assumption that this little old lady never had a life, a family or a daughter of her own beyond what we saw. *Don't get me wrong.* This was not her story and we didn't need to hear her backstory, but just a hint of contextual wisdom from her could have made all the difference. Pixar has always been great with this sort of nuance. Otherwise, they might as well have had Merdia find a book of spells or wished upon a star because other than the spell, the Witch serves absolutely no purpose beyond being scary, magical and old. It's actually an ugly stereotype.

Weaving her importance into the story beyond the initial contrivance would have strengthened the story. While I appreciate that the princess didn't need a prince, there's no need for praise. Disney is so late to the party that people should be critical that this sort of thing hasn't happened sooner. I do like the theme even though the paper-thin story is a failure on just about every level. Wasted potential. Wonderful voice artists. Beautiful animation. Still, worse than Cars 2.

 

[Drtooth]

I really disagree about worse than Cars 2. Brave was a noble idea that fell apart in the middle and could have gone with an extra year or so in script treatment. Cars 2 was a toy commercial. A fun toy commercial, but a toy commercial none the less. it was to sell toys to little boys who have more than enough toy options at their disposal anyway. The international visuals and all the thought and planning that went into them made it just slightly better than the original, where they were stuck in a boring looking gulch for most of the movie.

I get what you're saying about the witch. I don't think they intended to blow off older women or disrespect them in any way. It sounds like a problem in preproduction editing is to blame. I cannot help but think about what happened to the pilot in The Incredibles. You know... how Brad Bird wanted to establish the pilot, give him a rich backstory and close relationship with the family to personify him so the audience can identify and sympathize with him, only for him to die violently when the plane got shot down to underline the seriousness of the situation... but Lassiter wanted that cut out to Godzilla extra casualty because it didn't keep the momentum of the film. I can't help but think there was a lot to the witch that couldn't fit in the movie that would have fleshed out the character more. I can't help but think that for all the Scottish Tribes leaders. There seems to be too many characters, not enough time for full character establishment.

All and all, the film feels like it needed a half hour... nay, even 15 more minutes to it to give it that heft. More attacks from the bear, more time spent on his back story, more time spent on the Witch, more time spent on the Tribe leaders. A little balance could have done the whole movie well.

Meanwhile, I read that Wreck it Ralph was to have had a fourth game, a Sims/GTA pastiche. How clunky would that have been? That film knew how to get to the meat of the story.


Actually...there might be something to what I have to say

Seems VERY weaselly considering the true director was pushed out of the project.

 

[jvcarroll]

I really disagree about worse than Cars 2. Brave was a noble idea that fell apart in the middle and could have gone with an extra year or so in script treatment. Cars 2 was a toy commercial. A fun toy commercial, but a toy commercial none the less. it was to sell toys to little boys who have more than enough toy options at their disposal anyway. The international visuals and all the thought and planning that went into them made it just slightly better than the original, where they were stuck in a boring looking gulch for most of the movie.

I get what you're saying about the witch. I don't think they intended to blow off older women or disrespect them in any way. It sounds like a problem in preproduction editing is to blame. I cannot help but think about what happened to the pilot in The Incredibles. You know... how Brad Bird wanted to establish the pilot, give him a rich backstory and close relationship with the family to personify him so the audience can identify and sympathize with him, only for him to die violently when the plane got shot down to underline the seriousness of the situation... but Lassiter wanted that cut out to Godzilla extra casualty because it didn't keep the momentum of the film. I can't help but think there was a lot to the witch that couldn't fit in the movie that would have fleshed out the character more. I can't help but think that for all the Scottish Tribes leaders. There seems to be too many characters, not enough time for full character establishment.

All and all, the film feels like it needed a half hour... nay, even 15 more minutes to it to give it that heft. More attacks from the bear, more time spent on his back story, more time spent on the Witch, more time spent on the Tribe leaders. A little balance could have done the whole movie well.

Meanwhile, I read that Wreck it Ralph was to have had a fourth game, a Sims/GTA pastiche. How clunky would that have been? That film knew how to get to the meat of the story.


Actually...there might be something to what I have to say

Seems VERY weaselly considering the true director was pushed out of the project.

That movie was too long as is. The fault is a clunky script. The story should have been solid before the animation began. The Witch seems like a casualty of a very sloppy production. People forget that Reese Whitherspoon was also replaced during production.

Yeah, Cars 2 was a toy commercial and I really hated that, but it knew what it was supposed to be and kept to it. Brave is just a mess of good intentions that didn't come to fruition. Brave is the Jimmy Carter of the Pixar world. There. I said it!

 

[SuperGzilla12]

I think you just kind of pointed out the problem with talking about who should win and why. Unless you have seen all the movies nominated, do you really have any right to say X was better than Y and Z and when you have never seen them?

As John (BobthePizzaBoy) said, I was just trying to be funny with that.