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The new Muppet movie: Next Year's Yogi?

Discussion in 'Muppet Headlines' started by Frogster, Dec 17, 2010.

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  1. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    If some fans end up not liking a project, that does not mean they are not true fans. That's like saying only one religion is true. ;)

    Here's the way I see it. If Star Trek fans had just decided to support Star Trek: The Motion Picture, despite how poorly it was done, we might never have gotten such a better movie in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

    I don't know how this movie will do. I hope it is good. No one here really knows what will happen, good or bad. But if some people are skeptical that is their right.

    Purists are simply fans who feel that the Muppets did their best work under Jim Henson. Anything but disloyal.
  2. Duke Remington

    Duke Remington Active Member

    That's the exact kind of point that I was trying to make.
  3. frogboy4

    frogboy4 Inactive Member

    Re-read that last bit because that isn't what I said at all. I said the performers have been doing a good job. Nobody knows how the film will turn out because they're still shooting it. Skepticism is one thing, but wanting to be negative right out of the box is just downright unMuppety. Of course that’s the right of any forum member, but it’s why I’ve been staying off the forum a great deal more. I kind of feel Muppet purists would not only honor the work of Jim Henson, but his positive outlook as well. :)
  4. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    I think they do, it's just different than the way others do it. :)

  5. frogboy4

    frogboy4 Inactive Member

    I have been unable to locate the “Jim Henson spirit” in the little tidbit that started this pessimistic topic.
  6. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Well I can't speak for other users. And I'm not saying I agree with everything that was said. I'm just saying it reminds me of when Kermit didn't mind inviting Statler and Waldorf back into the theater in that one episode of the Muppet Show, even though they appear to be anything but supportive of the Muppets. That's truly the Hippie spirit that the Muppets embodied back in the day, inviting people into the group and accepting differences.
  7. matleo

    matleo Active Member

    First off, I think this is an interesting thread because the reality is that, as franchise, The Muppets fall into this weird category of never having gone away been never having been around much lately. It's like when you talk about "the muppet show" with Joe Ordinary he will inevitably tell you how as a kid his favorite character was "that dog that used to tell jokes. What was his name? Fonzie?" so from that perspective you can't say for certain that "Muppet Movie2" or "The Muppets Movie" or whatever you wanna call it, You can't predict that it's going to be an instant success.

    However, I think there's a big difference between Yogi and the Muppets in that when you talk about rebooting the Muppets, your talking about a property that has traditionally had very high standards and your trying to take what made it work and maybe dust it off a bit. But the thing about "Yogi Bear" is that even when it was good, it was never very good. The jokes were hokey, the characters were 2-dimensional and kind of one note, and the animation was done on the cheap. And it has a certain charm to it but it just doesn't translate. So when you reboot, your taking this very outdated source material and forcing it to try and work. And because of this, you have another major difference in that nobody has ever asked for Yogi reboot or Yogi movie. Whereas I don't think that's as true for the Muppets. I mean, how many Muppet fansites are there? How many proven celebrity fans do the Muppets have (Segel, NPH, Jimmy Fallon, Craig Ferguson, etc.) And even without a strong "Muppet Show presence' there's always the presence Sesame Street and those characters so like i said "The Muppets have never been away even though they've been away.

    So while there may be some people who may look at the new Muppet Movie and roll their eyes, I think they'll most likely do better than Yogi Bear.

    --Matt

    P.s.--My apologies to any Yogi Bear fans I may have offended. I actually am a fan of Yogi but also realistic in it's quality level.
  8. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    LOL, love that. Don't worry as a Yogi fan myself I completely understand, lol.

    And yay Time Bandits!
  9. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Bands are something different, I think. I'm talking cartoon characters and stuff like that. With any musician there's always some demo or unfinished piece of music floating around somewhere and someone at the recording company or label will want to release it. Michael Jackson's family is apparently not pleased with the album of unreleased demos that just came out...

    But unlike a band, you can always make another Bugs Bunny cartoon without any of the animators or Mel Blanc. You can't have someone randomly write a song and say "It's a Beatles song." heck, Ringo and Paul could get together and it still wouldn't be a Beatles song... it would be a Paul and Ringo song. With the exception of the disastrous Devo 2.0, you just can't make a "New" version of a band. You'll have impersonators (Elvis style) at best.

    OH GOD! A Christmas movie. No matter how bad it is, people will invariably see a Christmas movie. UGH! Yeah, something tells me this isn't going to do as well as we all hope if that's the case. And if it bombs because of Suck-ny animation's usual terrible job, I'll really be angry.

    Did he happen to see the second 2 live action TMNT movies? Because, let's face it... they weren't all that good. The first and fourth ones were the best of the bunch. And it really doesn't matter if the turtles were CGI in that movie. They would NOT have had the budget to get live action suits. The film barely made back what it cost to begin with. But at least they didn't dance around to Vanilla Ice or randomly go back to the Edo era... though, I admit they picked a pretty "Tales of TMNT" type story to do.
  10. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    You're saying "you can always make another Bugs Bunny cartoon without any of the animators or Mel Blanc" but to me that's like saying you can always make another Muppet movie without Jim Henson. As we've seen in the '90s, that's clearly not so easy. ;)

    Newer attempts at doing Looney Tunes have never been as good as the originals. The Looney Tunes stayed popular because it was still possible for a long time to see the original cartoons like the "Duck Season/Rabbit Season" bits on TV. Definitely not because of the newer projects which are barely remembered once they're done.

    And you can make newer versions of bands; bands come back in new incarnations all the time. But it's their original peak years that audiences tend to respond to. That's why bands in reunion tours mostly tend to play their original hits even though they'd rather play their newer songs. They know what the audience will respond to.

    Actually bands often seem more aware and respectful of their fanbase than the studios that make the TV shows and movies. Maybe it's because when bands perform live, they actually get to see what will get the audience excited and what will turn them off. And bands will cut back on newer songs if the audience isn't interested.
  11. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Yes, but the point is if they try hard and give enjoyable results, I'd be happy. Though, I wouldn't really compare animation owned by an entertainment mega-conglomerate to Henson, even when the company was really big in the 80's.

    The problem is that we just can't get the same look and feel as the classics, but that also doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Look at how Big Tiny Toons was... and Animaniacs. Sure they ticked off a bunch of purists, but they were perfectly good forgeries of the classic characters in TV animation form. At least 4 characters on Animaniacs were revisionist history (the three warners and Slappy Squirrel), the imaginary lost and obscure Looney Toons. Tiny Toons was the next generation Looney Tunes that had Bugs and Daffy right there with them. And let's not forget Taz-Mania, Sylvester and Tweety Mysteries, and the woefully underrated Duck Dodgers. They kept the spirit of the old cartoons, but managed to pull a new twist on them, perfectly fitting into character. Even some of the newer shorts, while not as entertaining and great or memorable as they older ones (of course, a lot of their 1960's Friz Freeling ones weren't so hot either), at least TRY.

    As opposed to Baby Looney Tunes or Loonatics Unleashed. Shows that the demographic was in mind the whole time, and the classic elements were thrown out the window in favor of marketing, merchandise, and other stuff that DIDN'T even happen because no one liked them... well, Baby looney Tunes had a mildly successful line of baby products, the obviously toyetic Loonatics didn't even garner a fast food promotion, much less the action figure line they CLEARLY wanted.

    Perhaps the best example of my point is Tom and Jerry Tales... sure, it had Korean animation and Canadian voice actors... but even when Hanna and Barbera (or at least MGM) were in charge, they could not make anything close to the original theatrical Tom and Jerry shorts... Not the Gene Dietch ones not the Chuck Jones ones, ESPECIALLY not the Filmation ones.. not even the Tom and Jerry show they made themselves.... but Tom and Jerry Tales felt like the old shorts (with certain exceptions, and adding Droopy to the cast for no reason... but it at least felt like Droopy)... sure, it wasn't hand animated and shown theatrically, any updates actually helped the new series along... and the only major change to the characters was Mammy Two Shows was replaced by a bungling obese white female. And I'm not a fan of overly PC things, but there's no way Mammy would fly these days.

    Seriously, even with that terrible theatrical animated movie (We've got to have...MONEY. Yeah, too bad you didn't make any by copying Disney) with them as executive producers... Tom and Jerry tales was the best television version of the characters. Too bad WB wanted the heck out of not-DTV movie animation, or we would have had that around a good long time.

    So when it all comes down to that, you CAN make a new project that's good, just not as good, as the original if you keep the spirit and have passion filled talents behind it. But you can also have a dog mess if you just hire a bunch of hacks to pull something out of their butts to make money on T-Shirts before putting something in mothballs.

    That said, the OTHER way around is even if you have the same people involved, you STILL can't recapture that magic. Look at Star Wars for example. Episode 3 was very good, but the others were missing so much.
  12. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Well I do want to say that as a purist I wasn't at all ticked off by Animaniacs. They were something new and fresh but still had the same sense of anarchy. In short, it was a well written show, lol. That's what this whole debate comes down to. Whether or not this will be a well written movie.

    Exactly, that can and does happen. And many Star Wars fans are hoping they never try doing another movie again if that's going to be the result. That doesn't make them disloyal fans. If anything, they're being loyal to the best product that the creator originally delivered. Are they contributing to the death of Star Wars by demanding quality? No, they are not.

    Bottom line for me though, Fans shouldn't automatically be called disloyal just because they don't instantly like new projects.

    I think in that Street Gang book on Sesame Street, it was said that Richard Hunt was one of the few people who was willing to tell Jim if something wasn't a good idea. That's not being disloyal or too negative (though I'm sure some people thought it was), that's making sure the final product is the best it can be.
  13. Frogpuppeteer

    Frogpuppeteer Well-Known Member

    but again as i and a few have stated theres a difference between wanting good quality and just liking it for the sake of not liking it
  14. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    I think that's assuming motivation. You can't assume all "purists" are just being annoying and stubborn just because you don't agree with their point of view. Maybe they're just as concerned about the Muppets as you are, but don't express it the way you do.

    I could just as easily say some fans like something just for the sake of liking it, regardless of quality. But I won't say that, because it's assuming motivation. ; )
  15. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    The Muppets resonate and connect with people in a way that Hana Barbara, Looney Tunes, and yes even Disney's beloved characters don't. As an experiment, go to a public place(shopping mall, grocery store, etc) wearing a spongebob, yogi bear, disney, etc shirt or piece of apparel/accessory...and then do the same but with Kermit, Fozzie, Animal, etc and you'll see the difference. I usually have a good 20-30 people come up to me all giddy and mesmerized, asking "where in the world did you get that hat/shirt/etc" at a mall or elsewhere when I wear Muppet merchandise, and plenty more stopping in their tracks to whisper and point in excitement.

    Whether this translates to major box office gold I do not know, but we can only hope. I definitely have confidence people will see the Muppets film in a much higher regard than these recent attrocities of cinematic "kid movie" garbage(Yogi Bear, The Smurfs, Chipmunks, etc)
  16. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    While I agree, you can also understand people's pessimism and being a bit worry wart-ish. From 1998 til a couple years ago we have had a lot of hopes dashed and false alarms. I personally believe if 2011 delivers the goods on all fronts, it will have been all worth it.

    You're right though...I just peaked at Disney/Touchstone's lineup for next year, and the Muppets seems to be their main tentpole movie next to Cars 2.
    http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=72435

    Disney only has 8 films next year.
    However, one is a "Touchstone" release(the throwaway Gnomeo and Juliet being lumped into theaters early in the year), one is a Disney Nature Imax type film, and one is of course Pixar. We'll count that as a Disney Tentpole film, so minus the Disneynature and odd Touchstone imprint release, Disney only has SIX films coming out in 2011. Mars Needs Moms is being released in March, so obviously they might not have the most confidence for that one.

    So basically Disney has three tentpole flagship releases in 2011:
    Pirates 4(which I admit does look spectacular from the 3d trailer I saw before tron), Cars 2(which looks way better than the first IMHO) and...The Muppets. The Muppets will be their main and only holiday/fall release. And you can bet they will be going overboard to give it the ultimate Toy Store 3 marketing push.

    Fans need to realize, "The Muppets" is NOT some throwaway jan-march or August release. It IS Disney's main tentpole film of their coveted holiday season spot, and that speaks volumes over their assured commitment. Be it mass marketing, merchandise, promotion, park tie-ins, tidal wave of tv marketing, etc this thing is going to be huge and unlike anything we've seen before.
  17. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member


    Actually I think we're just about in a new glory days for the Muppet. I know, people point to how many times Ive said that over the year...but I dont think any of us expected what has been happening visibly and behind the scenes(the online content, the comics, disney making the muppet movie one of their main films, etc) and what is to come. I think all the voices are now spot on(including whoever is now doing Scooter) and it's just a magical time. We can all agree that the Muppets felt like they were in a fog fugue state after 1990, and the public en masse felt the Muppets had gone away. So its been a struggle, but inherently people just have a deep connection to the Muppets and Disney will no doubt unleash a massive juggernaut campaign.

    I literally cringe at even the word Smurfs(always hated that show), but I am disappointed with how Garfield and Alvin turned out as I did kind of like those cartoons in the 1980's. They just look ugly, all of these live action with 3d cgi. You should youtube the spoof ending "Yogi Bear alternate ending Jesse James".

    Anyways, I don't think any of us can truly predict what amazing surprises Disney will have in store next year, so I am definitely prepared to be blown away. We should all be grateful, we've been waiting very patiently for this era we're about to embark on.


    I agree! I think we are all rather vocal when something isnt up to par or seems like a flat out bad idea. I definitely don't see people hold their tongues, and only a few people seem to embrace absolutely anything for the sake of it simply existing.
  18. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    I think that's a good way to describe it and I also agree that at the same time audiences have been and definitely will be rooting for them to succeed. I admit I was surprised this movie has gone so far in planning so that's a good sign. Just have to wait and see.

    Yeah I think overall we're pretty balanced. As balanced as you can be on a Muppet forum. ;)
  19. Frogster

    Frogster Active Member

    Very admirable... here's my response.
    The quality? Bohemian Rhapsody was the only video aside from the first couple that were put on that received online notoriety. And B.R. was huge. But that’s been over a year ago. The ones that followed barely held a candle. Don’t get me started on Letters to Santa. That was a sad excuse for a Christmas special, and if you noticed that Gonzo was essentially the main character, it’s because David’s been around the longest and he’s one of the few that still performs his own character. You’re not gonna see a movie or special focused on Fozzie for quite a while. Now obviously I’m just giving my opinion as a fan, which is biased. To the general public, it was “meh”.
    And it’s not the audience who doesn’t want them to go away. I know they don’t. But people also need jobs, and the Muppets are more of a business that needs to be held up in order to gain attention. Hanna Barbara, I was told recently, just got bought out so they’re going to try doing movies of the cartoon again, like the terrible Scooby Doo movies and Viva Rock Vegas. Time goes on, and as I’ve said before, people care more about stupid franchises such as Twilight and Glee, as sad as that is. I saw someone mentioned the next Twilight movie comes out the week before. I’m calling it now… it’ll eat up the box office and be #1 for 2 weeks straight. Frankly just knowing that kinda burns me a little. And yes, it’s going to have a ton of good cameos, but I can list you a TON of movies where there were celebrities galore and the film still fell flat. Polish a turd, it’s still a turd. BTW, if you want to argue a point in saying that the Muppets are still huge and fantastic, try leaving out words like Letters To Santa, Twitter, and Perez Hilton. Those will not help you.
  20. Frogster

    Frogster Active Member

    I also wanted to add, nobody's going to cut down the Muppets, and I don't even need to state the reasons why. It's a universal thing to have some appreciation towards the Muppets. This isn't like the superhero movie franchise or wondering if the next Hangover movie will hold up to the first. THAT's why you'll never see a respected newspaper, magazine or talk show dis on the Muppets, even if they're "Cooking with Kat" or coming to you "Live from DC." You can't really argue about people "eating up" the material they've put out when nobody's gonna badmouth Kermit.

    Oh and I'm also hearing the title of the movie is "The Muppets Movie" and I'm wondering, is this true? Are they not even trying to be creative anymore?


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