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bknatchbull
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"The Muppets' Wizard of Oz" disappoints
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Discuss!
askmike1
A Pair O' Dice
Posts: 215
(5/23/05 9:38 pm)
Reply
Re: "The Muppets' Wizard of Oz" disappoints
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I think this is the first article ever where i disagree on almost everything Jim says. I loved the movie and the humor and the casting. Pepe is so funny and the nipple scene is hysterical. I'm not going to say everything I like because I wrote all of that in the other Muppet thread. If this isn't how the Mupppets used to be, well then I like how they are now much better. I think Latifa, Grier and Ashanti were excellently cast. The only part where I could have done with out was the Quinten Tarrintino part (although I didn't hate it).
-Michael
MFW -Owner and Operator
Dreamworksfansite -Editor
thebig2
One of the crowd
Posts: 1
(5/24/05 6:02 am)
Reply What was Jimbo Watching
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That had to be oen of the worst articles ever written Jim. Sure the grammar was done well but I must have watched a different movie fridayngiht. The movie was full of witt and humor throughout. I cried when gonzo said, "Those are my nipples." All the way through I was laughing. David Alan Griers throwback to in Living Color with his , "Orders Up! DIng!!!" Sure Ashanti was horrible, nobody can say anything other than that. Her acting came off about as well as mine would have, which is bad. BUt Jim I think you were looking for any reason to not like this and it shows in this article. You were mad that Jerry Juhl & Paul Williams, along with Frank OZ werent involved in the project. You need to rewind your VHS tape back and watch it again without your prejudices of who did and did not make this movie. I think it was amazing and I like the muppets more now than I did as a child. Wrond Jimbo, Dead Wrong. But everyone has to be wrong once in a while.
RogerRmjet
Packet Loss Iminent
Posts: 86
(5/24/05 6:15 am)
Reply Re: What was Jimbo Watching
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I thought it was odd that Disney ran it on a Friday night. Whatever happened to the SUNDAY night movie? Was Disney purposefully looking for a smaller audience?
We had planned to watch it, but forgot to TiVo it while we were out seeing Revenge of the Sith. Now I'm not so sure I should be disappointed.
I think you can still be hip without being crude or topical, which will quickly date any film. Just look at any Pixar movie to see what I mean.
------------------------------
www.lightningbugfilms.com
Instidude
Remolacha Grande
Posts: 173
(5/24/05 6:16 am)
Reply Re: What was Jimbo Watching
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The problem that the Muppets have is that they are lost in time. I recently went back and watched my videos of "The Muppet Movie", "the Muppets Take Manhattan", and even "Muppet Treasure Island", and for a cute as those movies were, they don't play well today. My young kids were bored.
The Muppets were always known for having their best stuff amble along with wacky elements occuring from time to time, but also including long periods of character and plot development. And where I actually enjoy that, it sure doesn't fit into the mold of what is expected today. Oz tried to fit too many jokes in, but yet, the slower pace of the Muppets confused things.
Again, the writers and people making this film didn't appear to undertsand how the Muppets were, or they were intentionally trying to make it more appealing. But, as I started with, if they would have done this movie in the traditional Muppet sense, it would have bored todays kids to tears. As it was, my kids enjoyed this much more than the Muppet Movie, et al.
But, the Muppets are caught in the cunundrum of best operating in the 70's/80's, but todays audiences don't necessarily get that. They tried to make the Muppets into something for today's youngsters, and missed (although I don't think as badly as Jim did, as we also watched Robots this weekend, and my kids liked the Muppets better).
kaisrdanse
One of the crowd
Posts: 1
(5/24/05 7:24 am)
Reply Whoa - rein in the Negativity Express!!!
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I've been perusing JHM for about a year now and have consistently enjoyed the in-depth Disney discussions, and even found myself agreeing with many of Jim's laments about the current leadership, or lack therof, in the Disney organization. There have been SERIOUS missteps and corporate botching for many years, but I have to say, "Muppets Wizard of Oz" was not one of them.
Could it have been better with a feature budget? Sure! Would a script heavy with references to the 1939 original been more amusing? Maybe. Would Frank, Jerry, and Paul have done a better job? Probably. But here's the thing - far more than the Disney-less revival of "The Muppet Show" a few years back, "Muppets Wizard of Oz" seemed a return to form to this Muppet fan(atic.) The humor was old-school Muppets (witness the nipple gag and the Poppyfield segment.) Fozzie, Gonzo, Pepe, and Rizzo were all hilarious - and Piggy's Wicked Witch of the West was vintage Piggy - sassy, sarcastic, arrogant. . .And the Tarantino bit was inspired!
The songs were a bit lackluster, but to be honest, I'm glad they didn't attempt a full fledged musical on the budget they had. Kermit was underused, and it wasn't quite as zany as the original couple of movies, but it shows promise!
You know what - the main test for me is two-fold. First, I smiled all the way through the movie. Second, I laughed out loud, so loud my I got the evil eye from my SO, many times during the presentation. And that's what matters.
I respect Jim's opinion, but in this case, I think his bitterness and yearning for things past might be obscuring his critical eye.
LionHeartKC
Red 5 Standing By
Posts: 7
(5/24/05 9:03 am)
Reply Not the best avenue, but a noble effort
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I'm have to agree with the rest of the gang... I think Jim went WAY overboard here. I thoroughly enjoyed the movie and was very impressed with willingness of the Muppet team to go places that hadn't before. I mean, I was actually disturbed to see Kermit's head lying on the ground... and to me, that's the mark of a good movie, when it makes you feel something (other than sick, which is apparently what happened to Jim). I will agree with Jim on the songs. There was one entertaining number, but in general they were a wash, and even the entertaining number was fluff and quickly forgotten.
All in all, it was a worthwhile view, but I have to say that I don't think it's the right direction to get the Muppets back in the mainstream. Anyone who has had any live interaction with the Muppets knows that they are in top form when they are doing improv, especially Steve as Rizzo, Dave as Gonzo, and Bill as... well... any character he's ever done. The Muppets need a live show, no script and no characters other than themselves. Here's hoping the rumors about a new Muppet Show are leaning in that direction.
Darth Maui
Info. Nugget Miner
Posts: 47
(5/24/05 9:22 am)
Reply .
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I thought it was fine. It was a tad slow but not mind-numbingly slow.
Choose2Go
One of the crowd
Posts: 4
(5/24/05 9:36 am)
Reply Boycott
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As a rule, I will not watch movies or TV shows that try to pander to a 'hipper', 'edgier' audience by placing a black actor on a role created for or by a white actor. 'Wild, Wild West' springs to mind, as does this season's Kojak. I love the actors (Will Smith was good in I Robot - his character in this loosely based adaptation was never implied either black or white), and will tune in to subsequent offerings of theirs. And adaptations like 'The Wiz', a show I enjoyed on stage and screen, are acceptable. But as soon as I heard Ashanti as 'Dorothy' I knew I would not watch. This was just as wrong as when white actors took on black roles on radio shows (i.e. Amos and Andy). Could 'The Rock' play John Henry? How about Roseanne saying "I ain't birthin' no babies!" in Gone with the Wind? I know this might sound insensitive, but artistic integrity of the author should be considered.
Main Street Magic
One of the crowd
Posts: 1
(5/24/05 9:43 am)
Reply Sorry but in this case I agree with Jim
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We tried watching the WoO and turned it off after about 30 minutes. My wife and I both thought that it was really a waste of the Muppets time. Being aware, from reading previous columns by Jim, that this was supposed to be a test movie to see if the Muppets still have the draw, I felt that, as Jim says in the article, that the Muppets are delegated to a shelf somewhere. And I didn't want it to be that way. I love the Muppets as much as I love Disney.
Even reading the posts here I get the impression that even those that liked it thought that it could have been better.
findersgold
One of the crowd
Posts: 5
(5/24/05 10:19 am)
Reply ok, I'll back Jim
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Not that it matters, but I'm with Jim on this one. I thought, "ok it will get better once she gets to Oz." Then I thought, "ok it will get better once they start going to the Emerald City." Then I thought, "ok it will get better once they meet the wizard." Then I stopped thinking.
The script needed at least two more drafts. If you start with a polished script, you can cast a complete unknown as Dorothy. You can even use the 17th runner-up from any of these new TV "talent shows" - they'd be willing to work very cheap.
Look at the cool herky-jerky computer animation - doesn't really have anything to do with the Muppets' strengths, but so what?
I couldn't remember which Baum book it was that Dorothy wanted a recording contract - the sweet innocent girl looking for adventure and escape from her current situation (something more than this provincial life) becomes a spoiled impatient brat before you're even out of the gate.
A "Girls Gone Wild" reference? Who does that please? The Muppet fans? The Oz fans? A 15 year old boy that was no longer watching at that point?
For everyone commenting on how slow paced the old Muppet projects were - I'm sorry - I felt this Oz remake was dreadfully slow. Fifteen minutes before we see one Muppet - ouch. Jokes that fall flat make time run even slower.
The worst part for me was that I was looking forward to this - perhaps if I had no idea how good the Muppets can be, I wouldn't have been disappointed. Supposedly, "kids" liked this movie. All I know is a lot of kids are watching Pocahontas 2 and Aladdin 3 - it doesn't mean the movie's anything to be thrilled with.
kg4disney
One of the crowd
Posts: 1
(5/24/05 11:20 am)
Reply Muppets are past their prime.
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I have to agree with Jim on this one. I'm a big fan of the Muppets, or at least I used to be. I loved watching The Muppet Show as a kid, and I remember seeing The Muppet Movie in the theater. But I do think the Muppets have past their prime.
I wish they would stop re-doing movies/stories (Muppet Treasure Island, Muppet Christmas Carol, Muppet Wizard of Oz), and come up with original stories (The Muppet Movie).
Not sure what it will take to make the Muppets a hot property again. But TMWoO wasn't the way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did PePe/Toto say "****" at some point right after they landed in Oz? I thought that was really inappropriate for a kids show. And I don't think Gonzo's nipple comment was appropriate, either.
FYI, we have a 5 year old daughter and a 3 year old son, and try as I might, I can't get them interested in the Muppets. They are completely bored with them.
jsok
One of the crowd
Posts: 1
(5/24/05 11:56 am)
Reply Brains, heart, courage neeeded
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I think Jim's review was right on. I really wanted to like this new Muppet special. But the writing was terrible. The new cast of puppeteers is clearly talented, but this fact matters little when the material is crap.
There are sketches and gags on the old Muppet Show and in older feature films that still make me laugh out loud. And the first time I saw the pre-show to MuppetVision 3-D, my sides ached. Even the more recent, post-Jim Henson, short-lived "Muppets Tonight" TV series contained a good number of really funny segments.
But "Wizard of Oz" lacked any of the qualities of these earlier productions. In my opinion, the only character that manages to carry the tradition of Muppet hilarity, albeit unevenly, is Pepe the King Prawn.
Disney needs to re-examine these aforementioned productions to get a sense of appropriate material for their new acquisition. Better yet, Disney needs to get a hold of the writers that worked on these earlier efforts.
I hate to say it, but without Jim Henson or the Henson children any longer involved with the Muppets, I'm afraid that Kermit and company will be run into the ground a la Disney direct-to-video sequels.
Roger Colton
El Jefe de la Información
Posts: 478
(5/24/05 12:57 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Songs, etc.
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Reposted from the wrong topic?
As posted by Jamccul:
I thought the show was "OK" but could have been a lot better. I liked the book references and would have liked references to the 1939 movie that were lawyered out. I also couldn't help thinking that some references to the older Muppet Movies couldn't have helped newer audiences know more about the Muppets. The songs in the movie were ho-hum so I couldn't help wondering if references to or new renditions of "Rainbow Connection" and "It Ain't Easy Being Green" wouldn't have naturally blended Wizard of Oz and the Muppets.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discuss!
askmike1
A Pair O' Dice
Posts: 215
(5/23/05 9:38 pm)
Reply
Re: "The Muppets' Wizard of Oz" disappoints
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this is the first article ever where i disagree on almost everything Jim says. I loved the movie and the humor and the casting. Pepe is so funny and the nipple scene is hysterical. I'm not going to say everything I like because I wrote all of that in the other Muppet thread. If this isn't how the Mupppets used to be, well then I like how they are now much better. I think Latifa, Grier and Ashanti were excellently cast. The only part where I could have done with out was the Quinten Tarrintino part (although I didn't hate it).
-Michael
MFW -Owner and Operator
Dreamworksfansite -Editor
thebig2
One of the crowd
Posts: 1
(5/24/05 6:02 am)
Reply What was Jimbo Watching
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That had to be oen of the worst articles ever written Jim. Sure the grammar was done well but I must have watched a different movie fridayngiht. The movie was full of witt and humor throughout. I cried when gonzo said, "Those are my nipples." All the way through I was laughing. David Alan Griers throwback to in Living Color with his , "Orders Up! DIng!!!" Sure Ashanti was horrible, nobody can say anything other than that. Her acting came off about as well as mine would have, which is bad. BUt Jim I think you were looking for any reason to not like this and it shows in this article. You were mad that Jerry Juhl & Paul Williams, along with Frank OZ werent involved in the project. You need to rewind your VHS tape back and watch it again without your prejudices of who did and did not make this movie. I think it was amazing and I like the muppets more now than I did as a child. Wrond Jimbo, Dead Wrong. But everyone has to be wrong once in a while.
RogerRmjet
Packet Loss Iminent
Posts: 86
(5/24/05 6:15 am)
Reply Re: What was Jimbo Watching
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I thought it was odd that Disney ran it on a Friday night. Whatever happened to the SUNDAY night movie? Was Disney purposefully looking for a smaller audience?
We had planned to watch it, but forgot to TiVo it while we were out seeing Revenge of the Sith. Now I'm not so sure I should be disappointed.
I think you can still be hip without being crude or topical, which will quickly date any film. Just look at any Pixar movie to see what I mean.
------------------------------
www.lightningbugfilms.com
Instidude
Remolacha Grande
Posts: 173
(5/24/05 6:16 am)
Reply Re: What was Jimbo Watching
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem that the Muppets have is that they are lost in time. I recently went back and watched my videos of "The Muppet Movie", "the Muppets Take Manhattan", and even "Muppet Treasure Island", and for a cute as those movies were, they don't play well today. My young kids were bored.
The Muppets were always known for having their best stuff amble along with wacky elements occuring from time to time, but also including long periods of character and plot development. And where I actually enjoy that, it sure doesn't fit into the mold of what is expected today. Oz tried to fit too many jokes in, but yet, the slower pace of the Muppets confused things.
Again, the writers and people making this film didn't appear to undertsand how the Muppets were, or they were intentionally trying to make it more appealing. But, as I started with, if they would have done this movie in the traditional Muppet sense, it would have bored todays kids to tears. As it was, my kids enjoyed this much more than the Muppet Movie, et al.
But, the Muppets are caught in the cunundrum of best operating in the 70's/80's, but todays audiences don't necessarily get that. They tried to make the Muppets into something for today's youngsters, and missed (although I don't think as badly as Jim did, as we also watched Robots this weekend, and my kids liked the Muppets better).
kaisrdanse
One of the crowd
Posts: 1
(5/24/05 7:24 am)
Reply Whoa - rein in the Negativity Express!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been perusing JHM for about a year now and have consistently enjoyed the in-depth Disney discussions, and even found myself agreeing with many of Jim's laments about the current leadership, or lack therof, in the Disney organization. There have been SERIOUS missteps and corporate botching for many years, but I have to say, "Muppets Wizard of Oz" was not one of them.
Could it have been better with a feature budget? Sure! Would a script heavy with references to the 1939 original been more amusing? Maybe. Would Frank, Jerry, and Paul have done a better job? Probably. But here's the thing - far more than the Disney-less revival of "The Muppet Show" a few years back, "Muppets Wizard of Oz" seemed a return to form to this Muppet fan(atic.) The humor was old-school Muppets (witness the nipple gag and the Poppyfield segment.) Fozzie, Gonzo, Pepe, and Rizzo were all hilarious - and Piggy's Wicked Witch of the West was vintage Piggy - sassy, sarcastic, arrogant. . .And the Tarantino bit was inspired!
The songs were a bit lackluster, but to be honest, I'm glad they didn't attempt a full fledged musical on the budget they had. Kermit was underused, and it wasn't quite as zany as the original couple of movies, but it shows promise!
You know what - the main test for me is two-fold. First, I smiled all the way through the movie. Second, I laughed out loud, so loud my I got the evil eye from my SO, many times during the presentation. And that's what matters.
I respect Jim's opinion, but in this case, I think his bitterness and yearning for things past might be obscuring his critical eye.
LionHeartKC
Red 5 Standing By
Posts: 7
(5/24/05 9:03 am)
Reply Not the best avenue, but a noble effort
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm have to agree with the rest of the gang... I think Jim went WAY overboard here. I thoroughly enjoyed the movie and was very impressed with willingness of the Muppet team to go places that hadn't before. I mean, I was actually disturbed to see Kermit's head lying on the ground... and to me, that's the mark of a good movie, when it makes you feel something (other than sick, which is apparently what happened to Jim). I will agree with Jim on the songs. There was one entertaining number, but in general they were a wash, and even the entertaining number was fluff and quickly forgotten.
All in all, it was a worthwhile view, but I have to say that I don't think it's the right direction to get the Muppets back in the mainstream. Anyone who has had any live interaction with the Muppets knows that they are in top form when they are doing improv, especially Steve as Rizzo, Dave as Gonzo, and Bill as... well... any character he's ever done. The Muppets need a live show, no script and no characters other than themselves. Here's hoping the rumors about a new Muppet Show are leaning in that direction.
Darth Maui
Info. Nugget Miner
Posts: 47
(5/24/05 9:22 am)
Reply .
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I thought it was fine. It was a tad slow but not mind-numbingly slow.
Choose2Go
One of the crowd
Posts: 4
(5/24/05 9:36 am)
Reply Boycott
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a rule, I will not watch movies or TV shows that try to pander to a 'hipper', 'edgier' audience by placing a black actor on a role created for or by a white actor. 'Wild, Wild West' springs to mind, as does this season's Kojak. I love the actors (Will Smith was good in I Robot - his character in this loosely based adaptation was never implied either black or white), and will tune in to subsequent offerings of theirs. And adaptations like 'The Wiz', a show I enjoyed on stage and screen, are acceptable. But as soon as I heard Ashanti as 'Dorothy' I knew I would not watch. This was just as wrong as when white actors took on black roles on radio shows (i.e. Amos and Andy). Could 'The Rock' play John Henry? How about Roseanne saying "I ain't birthin' no babies!" in Gone with the Wind? I know this might sound insensitive, but artistic integrity of the author should be considered.
Main Street Magic
One of the crowd
Posts: 1
(5/24/05 9:43 am)
Reply Sorry but in this case I agree with Jim
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We tried watching the WoO and turned it off after about 30 minutes. My wife and I both thought that it was really a waste of the Muppets time. Being aware, from reading previous columns by Jim, that this was supposed to be a test movie to see if the Muppets still have the draw, I felt that, as Jim says in the article, that the Muppets are delegated to a shelf somewhere. And I didn't want it to be that way. I love the Muppets as much as I love Disney.
Even reading the posts here I get the impression that even those that liked it thought that it could have been better.
findersgold
One of the crowd
Posts: 5
(5/24/05 10:19 am)
Reply ok, I'll back Jim
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Not that it matters, but I'm with Jim on this one. I thought, "ok it will get better once she gets to Oz." Then I thought, "ok it will get better once they start going to the Emerald City." Then I thought, "ok it will get better once they meet the wizard." Then I stopped thinking.
The script needed at least two more drafts. If you start with a polished script, you can cast a complete unknown as Dorothy. You can even use the 17th runner-up from any of these new TV "talent shows" - they'd be willing to work very cheap.
Look at the cool herky-jerky computer animation - doesn't really have anything to do with the Muppets' strengths, but so what?
I couldn't remember which Baum book it was that Dorothy wanted a recording contract - the sweet innocent girl looking for adventure and escape from her current situation (something more than this provincial life) becomes a spoiled impatient brat before you're even out of the gate.
A "Girls Gone Wild" reference? Who does that please? The Muppet fans? The Oz fans? A 15 year old boy that was no longer watching at that point?
For everyone commenting on how slow paced the old Muppet projects were - I'm sorry - I felt this Oz remake was dreadfully slow. Fifteen minutes before we see one Muppet - ouch. Jokes that fall flat make time run even slower.
The worst part for me was that I was looking forward to this - perhaps if I had no idea how good the Muppets can be, I wouldn't have been disappointed. Supposedly, "kids" liked this movie. All I know is a lot of kids are watching Pocahontas 2 and Aladdin 3 - it doesn't mean the movie's anything to be thrilled with.
kg4disney
One of the crowd
Posts: 1
(5/24/05 11:20 am)
Reply Muppets are past their prime.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to agree with Jim on this one. I'm a big fan of the Muppets, or at least I used to be. I loved watching The Muppet Show as a kid, and I remember seeing The Muppet Movie in the theater. But I do think the Muppets have past their prime.
I wish they would stop re-doing movies/stories (Muppet Treasure Island, Muppet Christmas Carol, Muppet Wizard of Oz), and come up with original stories (The Muppet Movie).
Not sure what it will take to make the Muppets a hot property again. But TMWoO wasn't the way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did PePe/Toto say "****" at some point right after they landed in Oz? I thought that was really inappropriate for a kids show. And I don't think Gonzo's nipple comment was appropriate, either.
FYI, we have a 5 year old daughter and a 3 year old son, and try as I might, I can't get them interested in the Muppets. They are completely bored with them.
jsok
One of the crowd
Posts: 1
(5/24/05 11:56 am)
Reply Brains, heart, courage neeeded
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Jim's review was right on. I really wanted to like this new Muppet special. But the writing was terrible. The new cast of puppeteers is clearly talented, but this fact matters little when the material is crap.
There are sketches and gags on the old Muppet Show and in older feature films that still make me laugh out loud. And the first time I saw the pre-show to MuppetVision 3-D, my sides ached. Even the more recent, post-Jim Henson, short-lived "Muppets Tonight" TV series contained a good number of really funny segments.
But "Wizard of Oz" lacked any of the qualities of these earlier productions. In my opinion, the only character that manages to carry the tradition of Muppet hilarity, albeit unevenly, is Pepe the King Prawn.
Disney needs to re-examine these aforementioned productions to get a sense of appropriate material for their new acquisition. Better yet, Disney needs to get a hold of the writers that worked on these earlier efforts.
I hate to say it, but without Jim Henson or the Henson children any longer involved with the Muppets, I'm afraid that Kermit and company will be run into the ground a la Disney direct-to-video sequels.
Roger Colton
El Jefe de la Información
Posts: 478
(5/24/05 12:57 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Songs, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reposted from the wrong topic?
As posted by Jamccul:
I thought the show was "OK" but could have been a lot better. I liked the book references and would have liked references to the 1939 movie that were lawyered out. I also couldn't help thinking that some references to the older Muppet Movies couldn't have helped newer audiences know more about the Muppets. The songs in the movie were ho-hum so I couldn't help wondering if references to or new renditions of "Rainbow Connection" and "It Ain't Easy Being Green" wouldn't have naturally blended Wizard of Oz and the Muppets.