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Muppet Show Downloads

Discussion in 'On the Web' started by Honkydory, Feb 9, 2003.

  1. GonzoPimp

    GonzoPimp Well-Known Member

    It is true that we owe something to the JHC, but isn't it equally true that they owe it to us to put out DVDs that are worth the cost? I'm not saying I don't enjoy the DVDs, I love them and own them all, but what I am saying is how and why do they put out items so rarely and then on top of that, they are done so poorly, and then they wonder why the sales aren't where they should be...and another thing about run-on sentences...

    I guess what I'm saying is Piracy, true piracy is wrong, but can you really blame someone for not wanting to pay, when it seems like the DVDs were just thrown together.
    :excited: :concern: :flirt:
  2. scarecroe

    scarecroe Well-Known Member

    Heres' one answer to your whole bunch of theoreticals: anything still currently commercially available shouldn't be made available for download in full on the Internet. PERIOD.

    Not only is it illegal, but it's immoral.

    Every time someone downloads an episode of The Muppet Show that's currently available on DVD, that's one less unit that won't be sold and counted by the distributor and JHC. So that when the involved parties look at the numbers and see that they're not selling, they won't make any more. And we won't get any more. And it will be back to the b*tching and complaining, and it will be your fault for downloading them instead of buying them.

    That's how it works folks. I'll know who to thank when additional volumes never make it out.

  3. scarecroe

    scarecroe Well-Known Member

    They owe NOTHING to us. They release DVDs to make money, not to make you happy. You're lucky to get anything at all.

    So just because a DVD is missing a special feature that you wanted, that's no reason for you to pout in the corner and say, "well fine JHC, I'm just gonna steal them from you."

    If that's the game you want to play, you might want to consider going back to your toddler playgroup.

    Consider for a moment just how lucky we are to have 45 episodes of The Muppet Show uncut on DVD and stop being such a spoiled brat.
  4. anathema

    anathema Well-Known Member

    DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer...

    Nope. I don't recall the exact details of the US law, but the UK version, which is similar, states that you can only hang onto the recording for 30 days. You're not supposed to build up a library of recordings, much less make copies of them for others. The first part of that is completely unenforcable, of course :)

    I'd agree with that, although either way it's still copyright infringment (and NOT "theft" as the RIAA is trying to convince us ;-)

    So far as I know, that would also be copyright infringement. I would argue that if you were downloading someone else's TV recording, that's no different to digitising the show yourself (which *ought* to be covered by "fair use") and should be legal, but downloading someone's rip of a commercial DVD is definitely illegal. Of course, if you own the DVD yourself, you're supposedly entitled to make a backup, and again, I wouldn't distinguish between doing it yourself, and downloading someone else's.

    Now there's an interesting question which is leading to hundreds of subpoenas right now :) Again, I'd argue that it should be legal - at least for the downloader, who isn't gaining anything they hadn't already purchased.

    Another question: suppose you had purchased an LP, cassette or 8-track of an album which has become damaged, or for which you no longer have a player. You've already paid for it - it may well be through no fault of your own that you can no longer play it, so why should you be forced to buy another copy? Of course, chances are you're downloading a CD-rip, which is probably of higher-quality than your original. Then again, if you gave a monkey's about quality, you wouldn't be downloading MP3s, you'd be doing them yourself...

    The current argument would be that you're gaining something there, be it a higher-quality recording or the 'extra'. If you were downloading a copy taken from the VHS, on the other hand, I wouldn't have a problem with the idea.

    The above are my views. I am not a lawyer.
  5. anathema

    anathema Well-Known Member

    The flip-side of that argument is that most of the downloaders wouldn't have bought the item in the first place. Certainly there's no evidence that music sales are being hit by downloading. The main reason for the slowdown of CD sales is that for the last 20 years people have been replacing their vinyl collections, and this is coming to a natural end :)

    Disclaimer (should have put this on the end of my last post): I do not condone (or condemn) downloading of copyrighted material :)
  6. scarecroe

    scarecroe Well-Known Member

    I don't see how it's the flip-side, it's the exact argument I'm making. Those who are downloading the episodes haven't purchased the product; otherwise, what are they downloading it for? Hence one less DVD that won't show up in sales charts.

    Sure there is, it's all over the news. Didn't you hear that some dude was just fined 6 figures for making The Hulk available for download on the Internet? Additionally that the industry is now pressuring the courts to get IPs from everyone who has used P2P programs to download music and that they're talking jailtime. Not just fines, jailtime. Perhaps that will be a little incentive for these kids who think they have a "right" to steal media.
  7. anathema

    anathema Well-Known Member

    I said "wouldn't", not "didn't". If the download wasn't available, they still wouldn't have bought the DVD. There's no sale there no matter what.

    That's not evidence, that's FUD. Yes, CD sales are down. They've been decreasing steadily for years, partly for the reason I mentioned. The industry wants us to believe the falling sales are due to downloaders - they probably believe it themselves - and I don't deny that it has some effect, but it's neither the only cause nor the main one. Anecdotal evidence indicates that downloaders actually buy more CDs - the "try-before-you-buy" effect.

    Another major reason for falling sales is simple: customers don't want what's on offer. I have bought exactly one new CD in the last twelve months (the 25th Anniversary disc :), and numerous second-hand ones. This is nothing to do with it being possible to download CDs, it's simply that *nothing* currently in the high-street retailers appeals to me. There's a vast amount of stuff I'd like to buy - I need to replace my ageing cassette collection as well - but I can't, unless it turns up second-hand. And some of it was never released on CD - heck, some of it was only ever released on vinyl!

    The guy who put "Hulk" on the net got picked up because he was stupid enough to leak a pre-release copy from the ad agency where he worked. Big publicity, that one :)

    Right now, all the RIAA has are a list of IP addresses and usernames. Their next step is to force the ISPs to turn over real names and physical addresses of their customers. This can apparently be done with a simple application to the clerk of the court. No police, no judge and no due process required. Ain't that great? All it takes is the suspicion that Joe Q Public *might* be making copyrighted material available illegally. They have a list of filenames. That's not proof - witness the cases where universities have been fingered for hosting 'OpenOffice' and some pillock thought it was MS Office...

    Once again, IANAL, but this seems to me to be shifting the burden of proof onto the accused, not the accuser.

    Anyway, as I said, I don't condone downloading. On the other hand, I object to the RIAA's heavy-handed tactics. I'm pleased they've finally seen sense and started going after the people who are actually making these files available, rather than trying to kill off perfectly legal - and useful - technologies. I just don't like the way they're going about it, nor do I like them calling it "theft". They could at least get their definitions correct, but I guess that wouldn't make for such a good sound-bite...

    The BPI - which is the equivalent organisation over here - are taking the "educate, not litigate" approach, much as the MPAA are currently doing in the US. I believe they'll come down like the proverbial ton of bricks on anyone actually selling material, of course :)
  8. scarecroe

    scarecroe Well-Known Member

    Sure, it's the whole "cars are destroying our ozone" thing, but it still has an effect.

    I also don't believe that the majority of people downloading albums on P2P programs are going out and buying the CDs later. That's a crock made up by those defending themselves. If you want to "try before you buy" listen to the 60 second clips available at any e-store.

    I think you and I share the same argument, we just have different points of view on it.

    In the end, my position will always be the same. Don't download stuff you can buy.

    It's insane that when I do a search on Kazaa, that I find nothing but DVD rips and no episodes that can't be purchased. That's what the Internet should be about. Sharing stuff that you can't easily get.

    We're all a bunch of spoiled brats.
  9. anathema

    anathema Well-Known Member

    Er...don't use Kazaa in that case ;-)

    Admittedly the only English and French language ones up there are DVD-rips, but hey, if you speak German or Italian you're quids in!

    And no, I'm not posting where I saw these.
  10. plucky

    plucky Member

    Actually, there are many episodes available that are not out on DVD.

    It’s interesting the vehemence and name calling that are resorted to when an opposing argument comes up. I won’t continue that, but will continue to give other things to think about.

    First, are we saying that the Muppet Community at large who has old VHS tapes of the show they love should get rid of them and purchase the DVDs? How about those that still trade tapes, of both commercially released episodes or of non-available episodes?

    If we look back through time, Copyright laws, when they were first introduced in the US, lasted for 14 years with the possibility of 14 years renewal afterwords. Heck, the Constitution only says something about "there should be Copyright, but it should only last a limited time, to encourage creativity." Over the years, that copyright has been extended and extended and extended. I find it interesting that people just take the current copyright laws as "this is the way it has always been and should be", never questioning anything. Many of the copyright extentions have been fought against, and the more recent ones have been lobbied heavily for by media companies.

    Things that people should think about.

    And yes, how many people who downloaded some episodes would have bought them? Theres no proof one way or the other.

    Now note, before the flames go through the roof, I never said I downloaded episodes, and I didn't say that I haven't. We did tape every episode when they were on a long time ago around here, but I don't even know where those tapes are now.

    IP rights are so screwy, and the DMCA is quite screwy too (has anyone else here actually read it? I have a couple of times, fun reading, really). I always wish I could get the real facts behind things instead of the stories the news tells. I read somewhere once that the RIAA reached a settlement with webcasters at colleges to charge a certain fee, and "webcasts that were limited to talk, news and sports would be charged a smaller fee".... why should the RIAA get ANY fee from them? I just don't get it sometimes :)

    Well, I rekindled this thread a bit I think :)

  11. muppet_dk

    muppet_dk Well-Known Member

    I've been thinking about something when I read the last few posts in this thread.

    If one were to download episodes that are comercially avavible now. That would not be that much as a theft against JHC. Condsidering that EM-TV will get all the money that JHC has in thier account.

    But when the Henson kids take over the company again it would be a whole different story because JHC get to keep the money they earn.

    BTW Scott Alex is right about what he says about the German and Italian dubbed TMS episodes.
    But I've also seen episodes on some P2P that contain the 1st season openings that are not dubbed.
  12. scarecroe

    scarecroe Well-Known Member

    All I ever see on FTP accounts and P2P proggies are DVD rips. Never obscure episodes.

    Has anyone resorted to name-calling? Oh yeah, I called us all a bunch of spoiled brats. Because we are.

    No one said that. If you don't want em, don't buy em, lol.

    Copyright law is such a minor issue here. Laws are broken more often and on a much larger scale than some people realize. It's happened for as long as man-made laws have existed, and will continue to do so.

    Besides, technically, posting any media online without the consent of the owner is illegal. That includes even images, folks. But we get away with it so long as we keep our stuff limited. For example, I never post a full sound or video file of something you can go out a buy in the store. If anything, the stuff I post on the forums and my site are advertisements for products that can be purchased and actually help JHC and connected parties in the long run (and lately, they can use the help). However, say on Monday I posted the entire album Ol Brown Ears Is Back (which yes, is illegal technically, I know), if a new CD reissue were annouced to come out the next day, I'd take it down immediately. I see the Internet as a node through which I can share stuff with people who might not have otherwise had the comfort of owning it before it became unavailable and without having to go to great lengths to search at flea markets after the fact.

    The issue I'm trying to stress that I think is far more important is the support for the products we -- as a whole, as a group of Muppet fans -- have yearned to see released. If you don't buy what's out there, you won't get any more new stuff. It's as simple as that, and I really don't know how many different ways I can say it.

    BTW, I don't think anyone has been flamming here.
  13. GonzoPimp

    GonzoPimp Well-Known Member

    I think you have been flamming, and I think you have been rash, quick to judge and emotional. If you really want to debate you need to learn to detach yourself from whatever personal affiliation you have (as much as you can, at least). You think JHC doesn't owe us, the fans, anything? Then maybe you should think about how much money has been made off you, that is minus your pirated VHS collection. Wanting a decent product is not being immature, name-calling is.

    :excited: :excited: :concern: :flirt: :flirt:
    tu-pac lives!!!
  14. plucky

    plucky Member

    OK, I would like to call a hold on this for a little while.
    I wanted to reply as well, with a couple examples of what I thought were getting close to flames, but I will not at this time, and I would ask that replies are well thought out before they are made now. That was a pretty flaming anti-flame there, and I would rather dump a bucket of water on this now.

  15. scarecroe

    scarecroe Well-Known Member

    You're both right. In going back over my replies today, I apologize for the toddler playgroup comment. It was out of line, but I still say it's wrong to steal from JHC just because you don't like what they've given us.

    I don't apologize for calling all of us a bunch of spoiled brats. I'll say it again: we are. Back in the day, all Muppet fans had to collect and remember the show was an illustrated book retelling scenes from the show. Now we have complete episodes on DVD and we're spoiled.

    Same goes for most of what we have at our finger tips today inside or outside of Muppet fandom. The Internet, TV, DVDs...
  16. plucky

    plucky Member

    I'll agree I've been spoiled my whole life. When the Muppet Show was on a long time ago, I got to sit on the floor watching it eating fresh fudge and popcorn. Yum Yum!

    Now I've downloaded all the episodes of the old Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, because you can't buy it anywhere! It was on Fox Kids a few years back and I watched it again then, but they didn't show all of the episodes (and it had been on a month before we found out it was showing again.... :( ). Couldn't do THAT 10 years ago. Heck, I remember downloading a real bad .wav file of the Sailor Moon theme song off a website in 1994 and listening to it off the old Sparc box I was on in a public user room and thinking "Oh my god, I just got to listen to the Sailor Moon theme song I got from a web page?! That is the coolest thing!" Spoiled then.
    A couple months ago, I saw the "Ask Ken at Palisades" topic in the chat boards, and reading through it, seeing Kens comments, people talking about what they'd like to see in figures, I thought "Oh my god, you can talk to the person who's making the action figures I'm buying?! That's the coolest thing!" Yea, spoiled now :)

    And come next month, I'll go and buy the Storyteller DVD. I thought I was spoiled when I got to see them on TV the first time, now I'll get to watch them on DVD without commercials, spoiled again :)

  17. Muppetsdownunder

    Muppetsdownunder Well-Known Member

    Sorry if I am bringing back an old thread from the dead but I saw Plucky on here and it made me want to post. I have some muppet mp3s and they say in the tag, compressed by plucky, is that you plucky?

    I have always wanted to contact that plucky guy who has his name on lots of mp3s. Is it the plucky from here?

    from, Paul :)
  18. plucky

    plucky Member

    I'll plead the 5th.

  19. DR. TEETH

    DR. TEETH Member

    The problem with me is that I try to download some of the episodes and they are all avi files that for some reason i cant seem to view.
  20. anathema

    anathema Well-Known Member

    You probably don't have the necessary codec(s) installed. Most likely you'll need to install DivX (www.divx.com); you may need Xvid (www.xvid.org).

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