Your Thoughts: The Muppets' Wizard of Oz

[rumtar_10165]

Hated it!

Most of the film was excelent but there was some gray areas, like when gonzo blows a fuse or like Kermit being torn apart.. They could have done much better than that. I wonder if Jim still lived what he would say.

 

[minor muppetz]

speaking of spamela being oversexed/ normally wearing a bikini, if she couldn't have been one of the wicked witches prisioners, she could have been seen dancing at poppyfields.

 

[MWoO]

Yeah, she probably should have been, though Poppy's made you sleep which is not really her style. She was a one shot character though with no substance. No real reason to even include her.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Family Values

Yeah, she probably should have been, though Poppy's made you sleep which is not really her style. She was a one shot character though with no substance. No real reason to even include her.

Folks,
This is a subject that I have brought up in the past here and have been very quickly shot down. I do not intend to take a lot of time to discuss this again here, where I know for me it is a loosing battle. This is not exactly the right thread to use to talk about this.

I agree that family values differ from family to family, I grew up with June and Ward Cleaver as parents. I agree that the Muppets have evolved with the times. I never dreamed I would here the Muppets talking about Topless Dancers, Dress in Bikinis, or mention their nipples among other things that I have taken acceptation to.

For those of you who are younger (and I do not mean any offence) you may not have noticed, remembered, or been concerned with the dramatic cultural shift that took place as our nation merged from the 80's to the 90's and again from the 90's to 2000. There was a dramatic shift in programming, censorship, what was allowable to be seen and talked about on TV, in Music, Fast Food, Cars and on and on. Muppets tonight is a good example of what that shift brought us in terms of new programming with a stronger adult current running through it. With out bad mouthing a show that I only watched 2 times I will give this example. You would never see Spamela on Sesame Street, or a similar Character on Fraggel Rock, or Bear in the Big Blue House, nor would you have seen her on the Old Muppet Show.

I will agree on the old Muppet Show Piggy was very sexy and over sexed a lot. But there was a playful side to the show; Piggy has always carried her self with sophistication as a true lady who knows what decency is. Spamela, just like her human counter part is All T. & A. And that is why I do not like Spamela, because her purpose is to be half naked and sexy, A sex symbol parody, she is not to using humorous irreverence to convey real information.

The issue is Children’s programming blurring the lines between Child and Adult, A sex symbol half naked on a show that is intended for younger audience, while still enjoyable for adults. Best Example the recent cat in he hat film, adult toilet and sex jokes mixed into a kid’s film. Also Scooby Do rather than doing a better job with the writing, they use toilet humor and fart jokes because kids will laugh at it. I was shocked to see Scrappy Do urinate on Daphne, while the kids all roared with laughter. The original cartoon show had the occasional burp but no toilet humor or farting.

The Question is what are we teaching our children, where do we draw the line, and if Scooby do can fat, and pee and laugh at it why is it wrong for a six year old to do it in school during book report. In the 70's and 80's that stuff was not acceptable, especially in a kids film.


Now that i have waisted your time with my mindliss dribble, lets stick to topick.
Muppets OZ

 

[MWoO]

Kist because more things are talked about on TV and media does not mean the world is any less moral. Would you say the 70's were a more moral time with all the free and unprotected sex, drugs, war, and racism? Were the 1700's more moral with the opression of human rights in the united states just because people did not say the word nipple or wear bikini's?

If you ask me, people have not become anymore of less moral. We are just more open about things, and that is a good thing. I mean, we all have nipples. Babies get nurishment from their mother's nipples many times. Men walk around all the time without shirts and you see their nipples. How is seeing or saying the word nipples immoral? I just do not understand. There is no logic to it.

Family values is an ideal created by 50's TV. The fact is the Ward and June family is a rarity in any era.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Kist because more things are talked about on TV and media does not mean the world is any less moral. Would you say the 70's were a more moral time with all the free and unprotected sex, drugs, war, and racism? Were the 1700's more moral with the opression of human rights in the united states just because people did not say the word nipple or wear bikini's?

If you ask me, people have not become anymore of less moral. We are just more open about things, and that is a good thing. I mean, we all have nipples. Babies get nurishment from their mother's nipples many times. Men walk around all the time without shirts and you see their nipples. How is seeing or saying the word nipples immoral? I just do not understand. There is no logic to it.

Family values is an ideal created by 50's TV. The fact is the Ward and June family is a rarity in any era.

You make a strong point here. And I agree with where you are coming from. But then if we are supposed to be open and honest and have a level of understanding about let’s say the word nipple and what nipples are, and what they can often be used for. I have to ask is not the level of understanding of a 5 year old different than that of a 25 year old?

Then it would in fact be perfectly fine for a 5 year old to watch a film like Strip Tease. Or Acceptable for Janet Jackson to flash all those watching the super bowl, because we all have a level of understanding that hey it is just a nipple, and that is a good and wholesome thing, we all have them.

I actually give the Muppets credit because they used the nipple gag well, it was funny, but if there is noting wrong with this joke, nothing moraly wrong with touching Tin things Nipples....they why does Pepe freak out and say "I Feel Dirty"! What could possibly be dirty or wrong with something as good and wholesome to make PePe react that way? After all we all ahve them. As I have already stated.....

The issue is Children’s programming blurring the lines between Child and Adult, A sex symbol half naked on a show that is intended for younger audience, while still enjoyable for adults. Best Example the recent Cat in The Hat film, adult toilet and sex jokes mixed into a kid’s film. Also Scooby Do rather than doing a better job with the writing, they use toilet humor and fart jokes because kids will laugh at it. A child does not understand the lines between when things are appropriate and funny and when they are not. Children have to be taught those things, and when there heroes behave that way on screen it sends the wrong message. I was shocked to see Scrappy Do urinate on Daphne, while the kids all roared with laughter. The original cartoon show had the occasional burp but no toilet humor or farting, no urination....it was for kids after all.

The Question is what are we teaching our children, where do we draw the line, and if Scooby do can fart, and pee and laugh at it why it is wrong for a six year old to do it in school during book report. I do not claim that in our history every era has had its issues or that Morality has not been an evolving thing. But I think that you will find the June and Ward Cleavers are not so much a minority, they are about the age of 55 - 85 these days and gripe the loudest about how sex sells every thing from soda pop to toothpaste. And back in the day women had respect for themselves and did not show of a bunch of skin to get what they want. In the 70's and 80's that stuff was not acceptable, especially in a kids film.

I again realize that we have a difference of opinion, and this is not the first time that I have met with heavy opposition here about this subject. Morality we are accepting more and more in all forms of media and advertising. I have 2 degrees in adverting and the psychology behind effective advertising. I do not expect any of you to agree, in fact I expect you all to stick to your guns and proven me wrong, I want to be proven wrong. I want to believe that the change I have seen from the time I was a kid, to now being an adult of 29 years is a myth, a figment of my imagination.

But I find the evidence to speak other wise. However I do respect all of you, and am glad that you do not all agree with me, if at all. I am not here to judge, or try to chage your minds.

Now that I have again wasted your time with my mindless dribble, let’s stick to topic.
Muppets OZ

If any one would like to discuss this more, here is my email scarecrow34@hotmail.com.

 

[MWoO]

When it comes top morality and children, it is not the job of the entertainment industry or the government to teach such things to kids. It is the job of the parent. MWoO was rated PG, meaning parental guidence of course. When anything is rated PG a parent should watch the program or movie before allowing a child to view it, unles the parents wants to accept the rating and let their child watch anything with a pg rating unsupervised. Imn other words, it is the parents job to treach morality to their children, and you as an adult should not be worried about the muppet teaching morals in a pg movie.

Now Pepe reacted that way because that is how Pepe would react. Just because a king prawn puppet reacted that way does not mean that the mention of the word nipples is morally wrong. It was a joke and you really shouldn't use it to back up your point.

In a world of thinking humans who are not polluted with any of the worlds morals, nudity would not be an issue of morality. It really wouldn't. Violence however would probably be a major issue since violence can actually effect you. It seems this society has it backwards though.

Do I think the muppets should perform sex acts in a movie? No. Do i think saying the word nipple for joke with a robot goes too far? Not in the least. It's an innocent joke. It's not like it was a joke between Piggy and Kermit and piggy started to moan. It's a matter of degrees and shades of gray.

I must restate that MWoO was not children's programming. Sesame Street is, MWoO was not. It was a PG movie. Because of that, I think any argument regarding "what about the children?" is invalid.

How about we do this. We teach our own kids, and we teach them not to be racist or killers or rapists. Anything else is fair game as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

As for women respecting themselves, why does being naked mean you do not respect yourself? I'm sure strippers do respect themselves quite a bit. They happen to be comfortable with their bodies and like others to see them. So what? I honestly do not see why a woman chosing to do that is morally wrong nor do I see how it equates to not having self respect. If anything it means she has high self esteem. Now of course a child should not be exposed to that because a kid doesn ot have the ability to comprehend, but when was the last time a stripper was on Sesame Sreet taking it off for Elmo?

Not everything has to be kid friendly. There is plenty of kid friendly entertainment out there. If we were talking about Sesame Street's Wizard of Oz you wouldh ave a very valid point, but we aren't.

You bring up Scooby Do the movie, and again I have to point you to the rating. It is "Rated PG for some rude humor, language and some scary action". So, it is not a kids movie. All of the kids you saw in the theater were there because their parents though all the jokes were fine. It is not your duty to question their parenting skills, nor is it your concern. Take care of your own before you try to take care of everyone else.

 

[The Good Doctor]

.... I'm sure strippers do respect themselves quite a bit. They happen to be comfortable with their bodies and like others to see them. So what? I honestly do not see why a woman chosing to do that is morally wrong nor do I see how it equates to not having self respect. If anything it means she has high self esteem. Now of course a child should not be exposed to that because a kid does not have the ability to comprehend, but when was the last time a stripper was on Sesame Sreet.....

Thank you for making my point for me. You are correct; it is up to the parents to make those decisions for their children. My issue was not at all with Muppets Wizard of OZ, I loved it and as I said they handled the Nipple joke really well. I felt just like the Old Bugs Bunny Cartoons and the Original Muppet Show the adult jokes were over the kids head enough to where it was harmless.

Originally this began because we were talking about Spamela Hamderson, and the issue that I have with that Muppet is that she is (I feel) Designed to be a SEX SYMBOL, a parody of reality, nothing more than T. & A. Which sets her apart from most if not all of the other Muppet Characters. Lacing in class and style she is as they say Eye Candy.

Least we forget that when Jim was a live the Muppets taught us perhaps more often than not, but it was subtle, humors irreverence conveying real information, or did you forget all about that Not just on Sesame Street, but with Fraggel Rock, The Cat in The Hat Series they produced, The Muppet show, The Muppet movie, and on and on. there was always something to be learned; a heart felt song good friends on adventure. And in my Opinion Much less of the through away gags, and I think if you check this thread and those like it there are man who will agree the writing used to be lots better.

Again, I have 3 times now said I see your point, and I will say it again here, I do see your point very clearly. If you are not a big enough person to do the same, that is up to you. You make valid points, and although I do not agree on all statements but I can see where you are coming from. I believe that TV and entertainment industry does have a responsibility to the public, weather they take on that responsibility or not is up to them, and the networks. We also have to be responsible for ourselves, and for our children.

 

[minor muppetz]

Yeah, she probably should have been, though Poppy's made you sleep which is not really her style. She was a one shot character though with no substance. No real reason to even include her.

Spamela wasn't a one-shot character. She appeared in many episodes of Muppets Tonight!, and she also appeared in one of the Muppet parodies calendars (and was even fully dressed there).

 

[MWoO]

I think I meant one note character.