Weekly Box Office and Film Discussion Thread

[Scooterforever]

Never cared for Orson Scott Card, and I don't care much for Ender's Game, but it has more to with the fact I find his stuff uninteresting than it does with his politics. Some writers are able to keep their own personal politics and religion out of their works, others are not (e.g. L. Ron Hubbard, Grant Morrison). As long as a writer keeps their religion/ politics separate from their works, I still give their stuff a read. H.P. Lovecraft is one of my all-time favorite writers, I've read many of his most famous works, but I NEVER EVER read up on his personal life, and had no idea he was "a complete racist schmuck." If he's a creep, should that change the way I feel about his writing? I don't believe so; his writing doesn't seem to reflect his personal beliefs, and it's still great stuff. Frank Miller is a racist, sexist fascist, Alan Moore is an ego-maniacal dark wizard, Kevin Smith is a rude, mean-spirited, foul-mouthed troll, but I still enjoy their comic book writing, or at least their early stuff that isn't bogged down by their personal politics. Nobody's a saint, and if I only read stuff by people whose beliefs fit my own, I'd only have half a dozen books in my library.

 

[Drtooth]

It depends... all these writers wind up going insane from years of writing. It's true that Frank Miller wrote some great stuff, then wrote some terrible stuff after he became an Islamaphobe. These things kinda happen when writers write for too long and become insane from it.

But I must mention, there is a difference between having an opinion and turning something into an author tract. Also of note, it's not so much that Orson has a completely insane hateful opinion on homosexuality (a tinfoil hat hypothesis that all gay people were molested as children, which is wrong on so many levels it would take a library of books to sort them all out), but he's also on the board of a very vitriolic "traditional marriage" group. I personally would just shrug off the opinion as crazy author being crazy and slowly descending into madness (you mention Alan Moore, perfect example, guy's freakin' nuts), but he is actively trying to harm others by restricting their rights.

Whatever crapstorm from his homophobia that will be brought up in the media and all over the internet will lose that nuance, much like the Chick Fil A debate, where it was casually glossed over that they funneled profits to anti-gay groups. People have a right to whatever batcrackers opinion they have, but when they openly want to hurt or oppress people, that crosses a line. So I would say there's a big fear that whatever royalties Orson gets from the movie will be funneled into some hate group.

To be fair, Ender's Game is one of his earlier works that doesn't turn into a hateful tract. This is the same guy that would later go on to rewrite Hamlet to (this taken from TVTropes) "explained that Hamlet's father was a gay pedophile who was killed by Horatio because he molested him as a child. Oh and he, Laertes, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern all turned gay because of it." And everyone goes to Hades for it. And apparently a lot of his later works turn into hateful rants. But that earlier stuff was pre-descent, so that makes the tough decision of separating the work from the person or having the work tainted by the later actions of said person.

But I'm not debating the Crapstorm... I'm just warning about it. it's going to be epic.

 

[jvcarroll]

It depends... all these writers wind up going insane from years of writing. It's true that Frank Miller wrote some great stuff, then wrote some terrible stuff after he became an Islamaphobe. These things kinda happen when writers write for too long and become insane from it.

But I must mention, there is a difference between having an opinion and turning something into an author tract. Also of note, it's not so much that Orson has a completely insane hateful opinion on homosexuality (a tinfoil hat hypothesis that all gay people were molested as children, which is wrong on so many levels it would take a library of books to sort them all out), but he's also on the board of a very vitriolic "traditional marriage" group. I personally would just shrug off the opinion as crazy author being crazy and slowly descending into madness (you mention Alan Moore, perfect example, guy's freakin' nuts), but he is actively trying to harm others by restricting their rights.

Whatever crapstorm from his homophobia that will be brought up in the media and all over the internet will lose that nuance, much like the Chick Fil A debate, where it was casually glossed over that they funneled profits to anti-gay groups. People have a right to whatever batcrackers opinion they have, but when they openly want to hurt or oppress people, that crosses a line. So I would say there's a big fear that whatever royalties Orson gets from the movie will be funneled into some hate group.

To be fair, Ender's Game is one of his earlier works that doesn't turn into a hateful tract. This is the same guy that would later go on to rewrite Hamlet to (this taken from TVTropes) "explained that Hamlet's father was a gay pedophile who was killed by Horatio because he molested him as a child. Oh and he, Laertes, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern all turned gay because of it." And everyone goes to Hades for it. And apparently a lot of his later works turn into hateful rants. But that earlier stuff was pre-descent, so that makes the tough decision of separating the work from the person or having the work tainted by the later actions of said person.

But I'm not debating the Crapstorm... I'm just warning about it. it's going to be epic.

It's rare for me to boycott a film. I think it's okay to separate the artist from the work. I can handle it when someone disagrees with my point of view. The line is crossed when the Orson Scott Cards and the Dan Cathys of the world vilify all other points of view. There's an bogus rationalization that somehow those fundamentalists are having their rights oppressed by allowing the rights of others. It's absurd. And it's why I won't see Ender's Game. I have no patience for bullies and even less for bullies that whine when they are called out on their bad behavior.

 

[Scooterforever]

OSC's politics and beliefs sound pretty hateful and I want no part of it, but again I won't be seeing the film simply because I find Card's writing uninteresting. Ender's Game was out when I was a kid, but it struck me as Young Adult, and I never liked Young Adult books even when I WAS a "Young Adult." All Young Adult sci-fi/ fantasy seem the same, the fate of the world rests in the hands of some bratty kid, and Ender's Game doesn't sound any different. I always thought Ender seemed like a shameless Luke Skywalker knock-off, but somehow less likeable (sorry, but Luke is boring; Han is way cooler).

 

[Drtooth]

It's rare for me to boycott a film. I think it's okay to separate the artist from the work. I can handle it when someone disagrees with my point of view. The line is crossed when the Orson Scott Cards and the Dan Cathys of the world vilify all other points of view. There's an bogus rationalization that somehow those fundamentalists are having their rights oppressed by allowing the rights of others. It's absurd. And it's why I won't see Ender's Game. I have no patience for bullies and even less for bullies that whine when they are called out on their bad behavior.

Bully and Bigot aren't even the right words. The guy is clearly dangerously insane. He makes The Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight look calm and reserved. There's got to be something that happens to writers when they write long enough that they become embittered self-righteous jerks. And Orson fell off the embittered self righteous tree and hit every absolutely insane branch 0n the way down. If his rhetoric wasn't so dangerous, he's almost be hilarious. I mean, the fact he wants to overthrow the government violently if gay marriage was legal. That's only the most insane of the tin foil hats. And I wouldn't worry. If he so much as picks up a gun, he'd be drone fodder.

Still, I LOVE the "we're victims" defense I keep reading. All these bigots comparing everyone else to Hitler, because.. well, as we all know Nazis didn't like people who hate other people for petty reasons. It's like "Ow! You stepped on my foot!" "Yeah, well my foot's slightly uncomfortable for stepping on your foot! I'm the REAL victim!" It's always the same debate. And we're going to have it again when this movie comes out. And you just know "supporters" will see the movie passive aggressively.

 

[Scooterforever]

I feel kinda bad for people who read Ender's Game when they were kids and it was one their favorite books, and then the guy who wrote their favorite book pretty much turns into a Nazi, and now they're ashamed to let anyone find out they loved the series, because people take that to mean they support Card's politics. I'm sure not everyone involved in the new film agrees with OSC's politics. Harrison Ford is one of my all-time favorite actors, and I'd hate to think he was fully aware of OSC's hateful lifestyle when he signed on.

 

[Drtooth]

I feel sorry for anyone who is in this movie, because they'll be unfairly lumped in with Card's "we're giving him too much credit, he's just an insane ******" political/religious zealotry. Clearly, the filmmakers wanted no part of his views and just wanted to bring his non-fillibuster freeforall (TVTropes Term...HA) works to the screen. Harrison Ford would probably be able to shake this off. He's too well remembered in everything else he does to be dragged down with it. I mean, he's the only one to actually have a film career after Star Wars (unless you count James Earl Jones). But the younger stars will forever be branded as working in the story of a hateful madman. Not to mention the director and writer of the film... and essentially anyone involved with it. Surely they took something into consideration when greenlighting this.

Something tells me the studio's going to have to put up a huge disclaimer saying that OSC's politics do not reflect those of anyone involved in the film. Still would feel a LOT better if I knew he wasn't going to shove his royalties into a hateful pet project.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Nobody's a saint, and if I only read stuff by people whose beliefs fit my own, I'd only have half a dozen books in my library.

How true that is. The way I look at it, art will always be better than the artist.

 

[Scooterforever]

How true that is. The way I look at it, art will always be better than the artist.

Yes, even my favorite artist/ creator, Stan Lee, co-creator of almost every Marvel superhero, has his faults. He seems to forget that he created the Marvel Universe in collaboration with great artists such as Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and John Romita Sr. I've heard Kirby and his family really got screwed out of royalties for the groundbreaking work he did in collaboration with Stan, and you can't tell me Lee could have stepped up to the plate and stopped that from happening.

There's like a 0% chance of this happening, but if the people behind the Ender's Game film really wanted to quell the controversy they'll soon be facing, they could donate a percentage of the film's profits (at least 15%) to groups that fight for equal rights for gays and lesbians. It wouldn't hurt if the actors did the same thing with their salary from the film; surely Harrison Ford at least can afford it. This would be even better than a boycott, as the money from OSC's biggest project would then be used to fight the hate he spreads, which would be a nice big middle finger to mister Card .

 

[Drtooth]

Changing the subject.

This is what I freaking love... apparently the new Superman movie is already getting disappointing reviews for some reason. Not "this movie is bad" type reviews, just "this is somehow disappointing on the level that it's not up to our fanficky standards."

What the frag do people expect out of Superman? I mean, at best, he has had like 2 out of 5 movies that were good. Batman's batting average is far better (only 2 of them were terrible, we all know which ones they were... and that counts the 1960's film of the TV show and the Animated Series movie). WB has been trying to get a Superman franchise off the ground for years, with ideas far more horrible than this thankfully being scrapped.

This, and I can't stress this enough, is what happens when they put too much pressure on one film's box office draw. The word of mouth is so going to kill this film, and with it, every single plan they had for Superman and the Justice League and all that. It's no wonder they keep making Batman projects. Anytime they go out of the Bat-Comfort Zone, they fail at it.