Video: Merry Christmas from Miss Piggy and Rizzo

[LittleJerry92]

That was such a good performance that I genuinely wondered for a second there if Steve had returned. This is why I'm so critical of the current Kermit, they can clearly do so much better.

While I find Matt’s Kermit tolerable, as I’ve said in other posts, it really feels like he tries way too hard to focus on his voice. I really think Peter Linz should have taken over as Kermit honestly.

 

[antsamthompson9]

This was unexpected! Congrats to Bradley. I met him at the Center for Puppetry Arts a couple years ago, he's a really cool and nice guy. Plus he plays my favorite of the humanoid Muppets introduced to Sesame in the 2020s, Tamir. It's nice that they didn't pick one of the core 6 Muppet performers.

 

[antsamthompson9]

This is why I'm so critical of the current Kermit, they can clearly do so much better.

I'll be putting more quotes from this podcast in the quote thread, so I hope you'll tune into there.
JD Hansel: You have been tired of people not liking the Matt Vogel voice pretty much the whole time.
Jarrod Fairclough: I don't care if they don't like it. Stop complaining about it. There's other things in the world to worry about. Move on. And I'm a fan of Matt's Kermit. There are a couple of times where I have been like, uh, that hasn't been the best Kermit you've done, Matt. But there are other times where I'm like, yeah, you nailed it. Um, where I think the new Muppet Show will help is that where I think Matt shines the best as Kermit is when Kermit's happy and doing stuff. So, you know, you think about the O2 shows or the um Hollywood Bowl shows. Kermit was great in those because he was um he was sort of lively and happy and performing and having a great time. Um you look at Muppets Haunted Mansion. Kermit worked best when he was the ghost version of um like a ghost host or whatever he was. Um, rather than the Kermit who was sitting at home being all sad because, you know, oh, you know, you don't have to be great to be the great Gonzo Gonzo or whatever the h*** it was. Yeah, I hated that side of Kermit.
Mathew Soberman: You don't have to be the king prawn, Pepe. You can just be a prawn.
Jarrod: Exactly. Right. I think this will help because I think Kermit will feel like that happy putting on a show fun Kermit. Like, yeah, he
might get grumpy and angry and stuff like that, but I think it will show different dynamics and we won't just have the down in the dumps Kermit. It's funny you don't realize it only because the internet wasn't so much of a thing. There were a lot of people who grew up with the Muppet Show who never got used to Steve Whitmire. Um, you know, I listen to there was an old radio show in Australia called Get This.
Um, and it's one of my favorite things and I will still occasionally just cycle through old episodes
and I listened to one recently and Kermit the Frog came up and this was in 2007. So this is 17 years after Steve
took over. The host Tony Martin says, and granted he was wrong about it, but he goes, "Didn't Brian Henson or Jim
Henson's son take over? And he just never quite sounded right, but everyone just kind of went along with it because we're like, 'I guess this is just what he sounds like now'. But it still doesn't sound right." That was 17 years later and people are still commenting on
it. So, people aren't going to go away. Unfortunately, we're always going to have to deal with this as for as long as Kermit is played by Matt Vogel.
JD: I remember in 2011 listening to a podcast talking about the the 2011 movie and the hosts were saying, you know, the guy doing Kermit's voice still doesn't sound quite right. And I'm thinking it's been over 20 years. I don't know that we get to say
that it's wrong because I think he's the standard now. I think this is what it is. Uh like we're past the point where he can be wrong because he's not being held to the same standard anymore. He's being held to himself because
it's been over 20 years.
Mathew: The problem is that Kermit has always been held to the standard of people's
memories. And if you remember Jim Henson, no, Steve isn't going to sound the same. And if you grew up with Steve, Matt isn't going to sound the same either.
Jarrod: And one day someone will take over for Matt and someone will go, "Doesn't sound like Matt. Doesn't sound right." And as you said, JD, it's a vicious cycle.
Matthew: I mean, look, I've had to shout down people in my own family who said, "Oh, why not just get AI Jim Henson?"
Jarrod: Oh, gross. (JD make vomit noises)
Mathew: I was against it vehemently.
Jarrod: Yeah. Where I um my big thing from day one, since the day I found out Steve had been let go and that Matt was taking over, my whole thing had been I just hope Kermit feels like Kermit. As far as I'm concerned, Matt could have come in and been like, (in a hillbilly voice) "Well, hi everybody. Hi-ho, Kermit the Frog here." As long as he felt like Kermit, like Steve felt like Kermit to me. He felt like Jim's Kermit. Matt feels like Steve and Jim's Kermit to me. It still feels like the same character. And for me, that's so much more important than the voice maybe not always being 100% spot on. And people aren't even willing to accept it because they're so put off by the voice. And there are people in our own fan community, there are people on the Tough Pig staff who I had arguments with about this. As you said, JD, I've had enough of it since pretty much six months into it. It's like, all right, it's time to move on now.

 

[MWoO]

I'm glad Rizzo is back and both sounds and acts like Rizzo, too. Hard to believe it's been 10 years since Rizzo had a speaking part.

I do feel sorry for Steve, though. For us this is great news and a holiday surprise. For him this must be crushing.

 

[Chilly Down]

I agree with MWoO. (I'm about to share some concerns, but please keep in mind that I have positive things to say at the end.)

I had hoped things had settled enough between Disney and Steve by this point that they might offer him the chance to reprise his own roles even if he doesn't get Kermit and the others back. Instead, this signals that Disney is moving on, even more so than before.

It's fascinating to see how much timing is everything. On the same day that MuppetVision 3-D closed, Disney released a video of Kermit reminding people that the Muppets are coming to the Rock 'n Roller Coaster, and the online response was extremely negative due to the timing. Poor Matt Vogel was the brunt of a lot of the complaints, with people asking for Steve to be restored to the role of Kermit, even though Steve didn't originate the role.

Now, ironically, people everywhere online are praising the performances of the replacement Bean and Rizzo, even though these are roles that Steve did originate.

Remember that I promised you positive thoughts? Here we go!

The online response has been so positive because ... Bradley does a really excellent job with both characters! The praise is justified. And it's great to know that both characters aren't gone for good.

I believe the last time we saw Rizzo was in 2016 on the "Muppets" ABC sitcom. And Bean? I can't recall anything past his silent cameo in "It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie" way back in 2002. I gather that his return is due to the outpouring of love for MV3D, of which he is a central character.

When the TMS special was announced, I wondered if only the original TMS cast would be used, or if other members of the Muppet family would be included as well. This announcement seems to indicate the latter. (I can't imagine Disney doing a recast just for a Merry Christmas commercial, and despite this coming from DVC, nothing else in the spots seems to indicate that this has much to do with cruises. I think Disney is testing the waters for the February special, with brilliant success.)

Rizzo wasn't a major player in TMS, and Bean wasn't even created until an unrelated special in 1986. It looks like we might see more than one face we haven't seen in a long time!

 

[MWoO]

Now, ironically, people everywhere online are praising the performances of the replacement Bean and Rizzo, even though these are roles that Steve did originate.

I think it comes down to a few things.

Since they didn't replace Rizzo's performer right away, there was basically a decade with no Rizzo. This makes people miss the character and more willing to accept a "replacement". Similar to how people were super excited to have Scooter back in 2002 AVMMC because we hadn't had a performer for Scooter in over a decade.

Also, everyone does a Kermit impression and everyone thinks their impression is spot on. Many "casual" fans only really care about 5 characters tops, and the main one is always Kermit. In the 90s, there were fans that thought Steve's Kermit was "wrong" and they wouldn't accept his voice and performance because they missed Jim. Now we have a generation that grew up on Steve's Kermit and we see that same thing happening with Matt. And in 20 years or so when Matt is 75 and retired, there will be a new batch of people saying they miss his Kermit (assuming Disney actually puts out some content with Kermit in a main role) and that his replacement doesn't sound right.

Steve seems to have been black listed or at the very least he isn't willing to accept whatever is being offered to him. He wasn't part of the Fraggle Rock reboot, he hasn't been a part of Sesame Street for some time, he wasn't part of The Dark Crystal series, and Disney seems to have no intention of working with him. To me, Steve wasn't shy of giving his opinions to "the boss". This can lead to some creative collaboration and Jim Henson was usually open to other people's take on things, but most people don't like that. If they didn't ask for your opinion, that means they don't want it, and that labeled Steve as being "difficult".

 

[Grumpo]

About Kermit, it's not Matt's fault, nor a case of the public being too picky. Kermit IS the most difficult Muppet to perform, ever. Period.

It's not just the "voice", guys, it's everything -- not only vocal pitch and words being said, but pauses and gestures, sighs and stops, subtle inflections and expressions, the way character moves when he has something on his mind, the way he fidgets when he doesn't, and a myriad of other ways we all express ourselves, something we always recognize in people we know well.

Bill Barretta once said, on performing his own and other people's characters (bold emphasis is mine):

"Yes there is a difference between performing characters that I've created or collaborated on, versus characters that someone else created first. I’m not really a voice match artist, so when I'm performing Jim's characters, they are fair impersonations at best. What I try to do is hopefully present to the audience a certain feeling or essence of the original character to help compensate for that imperfect voice match. After all, the voice is really only ten percent of the character for the Muppets. It’s the other ninety percent or the characteristics and personality of the character that makes them who they are and their uniqueness. I will never be able to actually become Jim's characters, because they weren't born from me. So yes, I need to be more conscious, rehearsed and thoughtful about the choices that I make for those characters. As opposed to performing my own characters which are a part of me, and so I feel more comfortable being able to live more in the moment with them."

— Bill Barretta, MuppetsHenson exclusive, Oct 18, 2021

Out of all the Muppet characters, Kermit may be by far the most difficult to emulate. Being the most rounded, full-fledged personality given to him by Jim, he is not easy (impossible?) to summarize in a brief character description (like "Marvin Suggs: soft voice, hard mullets"). The "good hearted, compassionate leader of the muppets" does not even come close to describing who Kermit is. I doubt if it can be expressed other than "that feeling of Jim's Kermit". (If you watch Jim Henson: An Idea Man, he actually says that Kermit is a version of himself.) It's a LOT harder to get and express that "feeling or essence" Bill was talking about for Kermit than for, say, Sal, Bunsen, Rizzo, or even Rowlf.

Moreover, a good performance involves lots of choices for every minute movement, change of pitch, breath and cough, and lots of other things a person does not even think about, consciously. Most of it is coming "from inside", decisions are made on subconscious level based on what performer has "in him" for the character -- most of it just comes naturally, some is painstakingly rehearsed, some gets absorbed from experiencing other people -- pretty much all of it constitutes part of the unique personality of the performer, ingrained in his/her/their subconscious, in their "soul". There are a number of quotes by Muppet performers that their characters often surprise them by saying things they did not expect -- the whole character performance process is really heavily subconscious-related.

Sometimes the other person has a compatible personality, similar emotional upbringing and experiences, the "kindred soul", or a similar part of their psyche (e.g. some people are naturally Kermit-y without trying to seem so). That helps them to pick up the character's traits and mannerisms, but even then it is not an easy feat -- it still requires a lot of concentration, discipline, talent, and professionalism to pull thru.

"Every time a character is taken over by a new person, it sort of jumps to another track. It’s a little bit different. Even when the new person has uncanny ability, it can’t be the same, because these characters come from our souls."

— Dave Goelz, Vulture.com interview, Mar 19, 2018

Matt does it perfectly with Jerry Nelson's characters -- I am 200% behind his Sgt. Floyd, and I am sure that Matt is the absolute best that could ever happen to Uncle Deadly. (Come to think of it, it might have something to do with the fact that Jerry was an Okie, and Matt was born and raised in Kansas City.) I have no doubts whatsoever about Matt's talent or abilities -- his own Constantine will always keep a special place in my heart.

However, with Kermit, Steve had a lot of advantage - he worked side by side with Jim for ages, they really liked each other (per Frank Oz interview), and he was given that useful advice "don't try to play Kermit. Play Jim playing Kermit instead" (alas, I lost the source for this quote). Even with that, he had a hard time accepting Kermit until something from his subconscious, in a dream, told him it's time to do so.
Despite what Tough Pigs are trying to instill in the public mind lately, there was no general community outcry against "Steve's Kermit" -- rather, based on my own experience and words of everybody I asked about it, people were pleasantly surprised that Kermit was still pretty much himself, and there was no "hey, wrong Kermit" jolt for MCC. (Thanks, Steve, really -- Thank You So Much for that, man!)

Matt, or any new Kermit performer would be at disadvantage for exactly the same reasons -- no direct experience of working with Jim, or insight into Jim's mind and Jim's upbringing (unless it's a fellow Southerner) -- and apparently Matt was told by members of Henson family when he was coached for Kermit's role not to take in anything from Steve, but "return to the roots" instead, which he tries to emulate from old recordings.

Alas -- When I went to see MCC I was ready to call it quits on Muppets -- and was amazed that I could believe the Kermit I used to know is right there on screen. When I see Kermit's performances past 2016, I really want everything to be up and running, but the only thing on my mind is -- no, not there yet. (Despite Tough Pigs desperate pleas "it's been 10 years now, shut up everybody". Even if these guys are not directly on Disney's payroll, they are privy to so many internal happenings there that they are probably not allowed to form their own opinions.)

Maybe somebody should give Matt advice like "don't try to play Kermit, play Constantine playing Kermit instead" and see if it makes things better?

 

[LittleJerry92]

Steve could have been a difficult person to work with behind the scenes. None of us have worked with him so we can’t say what he was like in the business part of this industry. That said, regardless of what relationship Disney, Sesame Workshop, the Hensons etc have with Steve now, it’s clear he’s moved on. Having personally met him at a convention in September 2018 7 years ago, I did bring up how disappointed I was to see him have to leave, and he mentioned to me how tough it was but he’s since moved on and felt much happier with his life. And I could see it.

He still has his own projects he can work on and is regularly invited to conventions, so at the very least, he still has some income for himself and has a good status for himself for fans to regularly ask conventions to bring him in. Had I been born around the 60s long enough to be exposed to just Jim’s Kermit, who knows how I could have felt with Steve. Regardless if his voice may be in a slightly higher pitch, I can see how much effort Steve put in with Kermit throughout his time performing him.

Regarding Matt’s Kermit, obviously people are gonna have their differing thoughts on it. I can see the effort Matt tries to put in with Kermit, the problem I find is both the direction Disney tries to put Kermit in and the fact that it feels like he tries too hard to focus on his voice rather than his character himself.

Frankly though I just get tired of hearing people say Matt’s Kermit is “similar” or “just like” Jim’s Kermit. No. It absolutely isn’t. Your ears are only wanting to hear his voice like that because you’re happy Steve is gone.