UK TMS question

[chrischaloner]

I was reading another forum just now, and (in a discussion on Danny Kaye/audio taping TV shows before VCRs) I found this:

“I've got a C60 tape recording I did when I was seven, of Danny Kaye being the guest on The Muppets. It's got adverts inbetween for Lewis's boxing day sale and Jaws 2, and him and the muppets at the end, telling everyone that The Morecambe and Wise Christmas Show is on next (even though they don't know who Morecambe and Wise are). I don't know why I'm telling you all this.”

This sounds like the UK show had a different ending to the US version, referring to the next show on ITV!

Did they do this a lot, and were there any different jokes in this bit?

If they *did* do it a lot, maybe that explains why all the UK releases of full Muppet Show episodes (including the DVDs) are blurry PAL-NTSC-PAL conversions instead of the UK originals (which obviously still exist, as the “Very Best Of” compilations are in PAL).

I’d prefer to see them released as they were originally transmitted in the UK, even if they did plug other shows at the end. The improvement in picture quality alone would be worth it.

What does anyone else think?

 

[anathema]

I don't know about the bit you're referring to, but I can assure you that the UK VHS and DVD releases are not standards conversions! They are taken from PAL masters. VHS is inherently poor quality, it's true, but the difference between PAL and NTSC VHS is still immense The DVD releases suffer from not having been restored (there's Quad scratches and several other nasties in them), but they're still original PAL material.

 

[chrischaloner]

I’m fairly sure they *are* NTSC conversions. The difference is most clearly visible on the DVDs between the “Very Best Of” compilations and the actual episodes they included as "extras". The compilations are extremely sharp, but the episodes are much softer looking and the colour balance is different. There shouldn’t be any difference in sharpness or colour if they were both PAL as they'd be from the same source.

Obviously the Brian Henson intros are NTSC, and the clips from the episodes used during those are from the NTSC copies, since they come from US TV. Compare those clips to the actual episodes straight after and there’s no difference = NTSC.

In the case of VHS, I initially started to suspect the episodes on the HMV box set were NTSC during the first episode, and compared them with my VHS copies of the “Very Best Of” tapes and the off-air copy of the Leo Sayer episode I have from the 80s BBC 1 repeats. It was obvious from the VHS-VHS comparison and the DVDs just confirmed it.

They’ve done a good job converting them (no “Claws of Axos” style problems or anything) but they do still look converted.

As you appear to be a Doctor Who fan (judging by your sig), you should be fairly good at spotting a CSO “halo”. Look at the “little fishies” song in the Mark Hamil/Star Wars episode on the DVD or the Bob Hope episode when he’s on the horse at the end from the HMV box set. The whole picture has been blurred by the conversion process, and it makes the CSO less obvious. Just think what the “fishies” song would look like in PAL! It’d be something like that shot from Time-Flight where Nyssa realises they aren’t at Heathrow!

(Incidentally, and veering OT, I’ve been watching the new series 7 of Buffy (thanks to the internet) and in one episode Buffy says “I’m the one the monsters have nightmares about”!!! Presumably someone from the Buffy staff reads the Dr Who novels…)

 

[BlueFrackle]

Chris,

Is there any way that we can get a copy of this C60 Tape Recording ?


Thanks

 

[MuppetDanny]

This C60 Recording how original is this episode? Does it say ATV or ITC ? - I ask I have the original ITC 16mm episode version.

MuppetDanny

 

[chrischaloner]

You’d be best off asking here, as this is the forum/thread that I found that message I quoted in:

http://www.frogger.uklinux.net/forums/print_mess.php?f=comedy&ran=195770&root_id=100822&all=1

If that doesn’t work, it’s www.notbbc.com/comedy and the thread is “Danny Kaye Fans!”

You’ll have to register before you can post though.

I don’t know anything about it, except what the guy said in the message. I just thought I’d ask about it here, in case it was a regular thing or was the reason for the PAL-NTSC-PAL releases.

 

[anathema]

Originally posted by chrischaloner
I’m fairly sure they *are* NTSC conversions. The difference is most clearly visible on the DVDs between the “Very Best Of” compilations and the actual episodes they included as "extras". The compilations are extremely sharp, but the episodes are much softer looking and the colour balance is different. There shouldn’t be any difference in sharpness or colour if they were both PAL as they'd be from the same source.

I've not checked, so this is speculation, but it's not impossible that the eps were done at a lower bitrate than the "main feature", which can cause that kind of problem. In any event, the "Best Of" compilations were edited together years ago, and could well have been put together from different source tapes. I don't have the faintest idea where Columbia got their masters from, but it's more than likely that they are a few generations down from the originals, and if they've been through any analogue format, there will be noise, and the picture will get softer...

As for colour balance, I've got multiple recordings (all PAL) of several episodes, and the colour balance, signal level and contrast varies wildly from one to another The only way to guarantee consistency would be if all the copies were sourced from the same *digital* recording. Any time you play back an analogue recording, it has the potential to look different.

Obviously the Brian Henson intros are NTSC, and the clips from the episodes used during those are from the NTSC copies, since they come from US TV. Compare those clips to the actual episodes straight after and there’s no difference = NTSC.

Do we know for a fact that they were shot as 525/60? If they were done with a digital camera, which is quite possible, it's much more likely that they would have been done at 24p, so there wouldn't be any conversion artefacts when transferred to PAL, and they could easily have been done at a higher resolution.

In the case of VHS, I initially started to suspect the episodes on the HMV box set were NTSC during the first episode, and compared them with my VHS copies of the “Very Best Of” tapes and the off-air copy of the Leo Sayer episode I have from the 80s BBC 1 repeats. It was obvious from the VHS-VHS comparison and the DVDs just confirmed it.

They’ve done a good job converting them (no “Claws of Axos” style problems or anything) but they do still look converted.

Seriously, they're not NTSC conversions! I've seen enough video to be able to look at something and immediately identify a) the video standard, b) the approximate age, and c) usually identify the (original) tape format and cameras used Modern VHS releases look uniformly terrible due to the cheap and nasty tape stock in use (I've got off-air VHS which looks miles better than most of the pre-recorded stuff I've bought in the last few years!), and there's plenty of interesting ways to mess up a DVD picture!

There is also absolutely no reason for them to have done something like this. Consider: the US masters are cut, and the recent VHS/DVD releases over there must have had to go back to the PAL originals to obtain the UK skits. Since the PAL tapes are uncut, why would Columbia have paid for a second standards conversion?

Regardless of how well a conversion is done, there's always motion artefacts. I can't watch PAL->NTSC conversions (or 3:2 pulldown conversions) - I find the motion judder and blur totally unacceptable. I haven't seen any evidence of this in the DVDs (didn't watch the intros .

The other dead giveaway is that if you were looking at a PAL->NTSC->PAL conversion, the frames of the final PAL copy would almost certainly not be a precise match to those of the original. I've got broadcast PAL copies which I have run side-by-side with some of the HMV tapes, and they match exactly.

Finally, I've seen some of the US DVD releases, and the UK ones beat them hands-down for picture quality ;-)

As you appear to be a Doctor Who fan (judging by your sig), you should be fairly good at spotting a CSO “halo”. Look at the “little fishies” song in the Mark Hamil/Star Wars episode on the DVD or the Bob Hope episode when he’s on the horse at the end from the HMV box set. The whole picture has been blurred by the conversion process, and it makes the CSO less obvious. Just think what the “fishies” song would look like in PAL! It’d be something like that shot from Time-Flight where Nyssa realises they aren’t at Heathrow!

Once again, cheap tape stock, signal processing, noise reduction and a low bitrate would all have similar effects. Plus, having just checked against the French DVD of the Bob Hope show, there never was much blue fringing in the first place. (And yes, those DVDs are definitely PAL!)

 

[BlueFrackle]

Guys,

I cant manage to sign up to that board, Someone else try and get a copy of that extra scene !


I once saw a Season One Kermit and Fozzie scene, Where they say "See you next week on The Muppet Show", But it was as if it was made for after the show had finished.

It was just Kermit and Fozzie with a blue baclground, Very strange !


see ya

 

[MuppetDanny]

Warrick

I got that !

What's it is a out take.

This happens :

Fozzie: Thanks for watching !
Kermit: We hope to see you soon
(Fozzie opens his mouth wide and laughs.......................)
Fozzie: My mouth is stuck!

This came from one of those "Alright on the Night" ones with Dennis Norden

MuppetDanny

 

[anathema]

Re: Guys,

Originally posted by Warrick
I cant manage to sign up to that board, Someone else try and get a copy of that extra scene !

Don't forget it's an audio-only copy