Trying to get back into puppetry...

[mupcollector1]

I couldn't come up with a better thread name because there's more than one question on my mind and I would just hate to make a whole mess of threads and get in trouble with the forum some how (I don't think I ever have but I just love this forum so much and I'm a worry wart and just Joe sensitive if I made a little mistake and take it hard on myself from time to time, Anyway...)

I'm trying to get into puppetry again. I've always loved it and never stopped loving it. I've done lots of short films with a huge cast of puppets. But there was a bunch of error that I don't know how to fix and make better. The puppets were too small, they were always wearing our horribly, I used a glue gun for everything and before that it was duck tape (yeah, that bad lol), Felt instead of fleese, and I was working under a $100 budget because I was still living with my father at the time and of course he didn't really support my arts at all. Even though he did take me to Muppet Fest years ago, he was sort of verbally abusive and he won't let me go to college at UConn to take the puppetry course which I really wanted to take, not even one art course in college so I took film.
Then I put things on youtube years ago then took them off because this teenage cyberbully toll kid mocked how my puppets looked pretty bad and my uniqe comedy style stool my identify online, long story..

Anyway I ran away with my mother when I was 21 back in 2009 to excape, my puppets were still in my basement and then I got my apartment and couldn't get my puppets back. Plus they all feel apart anyway. So I was in deep depression and got PTSD. So I slowly got back into the arts because that's who I was and what I loved. I started with comics, then got back into animation and doing film festivals and brought back my style of art again but with animation. Still working under a $200 budget, still a bit better, but the grim reality being I'm unemployed still looking for my first job and I really wanted to get back into puppetry and make a huge cast and wanted the puppets to look as good as the quality of The Muppets, Dinosaurs (the hand puppets on DinoTV) and very much like Spitting Image and Guignols and wanted to experiment making characture puppets like that with blinking eyes and stuff. But from my research, puppet budgets are super expensive. That's why Spitting Image got canceled. So I tried to think of solutions if I ever would get a tv series one of these days, I'm really trying too.

So my first economic idea was all sets being chroma key, then recently the puppets would be digital but still foam puppets but in motion capture so it would still have the quality real timing of the puppeteers performance and the puppet would be built through Autodesk software like mudbox and look so realistic but move fast and wacky like a puppet and not like the CGI stuff that's out there today. I wanted them to look realistic but have that comic movement of a puppet. I still want to look into that but for some reason, just because how computer savy and CGI savy the world has become in the media and just the slow extinction of puppets and 2D and clay animation. I kind of felt bad thinking well I still love regular hand crafted puppets but it's so hard due to budget. And of course Hollywood is so money hungry and not so much artistic appreciatied people which I wish they were more of, would do anything to save money. The writers strike of 2007 for example, that's why there's so much reality and game shows. They don't need to hire writers, and now the cartoon / puppet world slowly drifts away but once in a blue moon, they pop up but not as much. For example the new Muppet movie (and of course we know that our favorite characters will stay true to their fabricated american selves lol and that new pirate movie from the Wallious and Gromit guys, Nick Park I think the guy's name is.

Anyway basicly, I just want to figure out budget just in case I do get oppertunatly someday, to study a head of time.

So here's my questions

(1. What was the budget of The Muppet Show minus what they payed the guest stars. Just the budget for pre, production, and post. (This includes puppet building)
( 2. How many Muppets where there in The Muppet Show and how many characters did they build and re-build per season? I kind of know that there was characters from past productions and recycled characters which saved them from the budget a little bit.
(3. Anyone know the same info for Spitting Image and Les Guignols De L'info? I heard they were using drama show money and cinema money. I think Guignols uses 20 Million a year and they spend little by little when they do their cinematic 3 minute sketches per 10 minute show.
(4. Same questions with Crank Yankers.
(5. How much does it cost to build one puppet that's made of foam, make of latex foam, a whole cast, etc.

I remember using a simular Whatnot technic and I think Crank Yankers did too. But I didn't want my characters to look so simple because I didn't want to copy Muppet style too much.
I developed a drawing style of my own but what was so difficult was making it 3D accurate to them. Also flat foam I struggled with a lot. I like more of the complex block foam methods more. I heard an easier way to carve then just scissors and ripping foam apart until your fingers are soar is sandpaper. Has anyone used this? I had a puppeteer friend of mine tell me this.

Also anyone know about liquid foam mold making and how to make eyes blink without needing to struggle with a string on the inside of the head tyed to the finger thingy? I heard that's how Gonzo's eye lids worked, Dave Golez told me when I meet him at MuppetFest. So I tried it but it's so difficult. I've looked up technics of levers inside the head and I rather do something with macanics going inside and coming outside the puppet with a rubber bolb or brass ring material or something like that so I would know it won't jam and struggle to work.


Anyway, sorry about the long message, I just had a lot of thoughts in my head about it all. Thanks.

 

[Buck-Beaver]

With respect, I think you're focused on the wrong things. I've been writing about people doing puppetry on the web for over eight years now and from what I've seen and watched trying to out-Muppet the Muppets, or copy expensive TV shows is the wrong approach. It almost always fails. I certainly understand being curious, but it doesn't matter what the budgets of The Muppet Show, Spitting Image or Les Guignols were. With the exception of Les Guignols (which is still in production), those shows were shot decades ago using complicated funding schemes, different technology and the economies involved aren't really comparable any more (they are also some of the most expensive TV shows ever produced, which is why more shows like them don't get made).

My advice is to make one puppet and make some videos with it. Make a video every week and post it on YouTube. Ask for feedback...look for (constructive) criticism, not praise or compliments (praise won't help you get better at what you do). Once you master that, then build a second puppet. The key is to make something quickly and get feedback on it immediately, then repeat (and repeat again and again and...).

What's really important is to do and master one thing at a time. This is a concept called deliberate practice (Google it or read Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers) and people who take this approach succeed much faster and much more often than people who try to take on too much too fast (this advice comes from a certain amount of first hand experience).

Also, don't use chroma-key. It's a pain in the a-- unless you have After Effects and you're already very good at compositing. You will waste dozens or even hundreds of hours tinkering with software that could better spent on performing and writing. Plus, it almost always looks fake. It's much better to just work with a simple black or white background that is well lit and produce well edited videos. Do everything that you in-camera (no fancy visual effects).

Become a very good puppeteer. Do live performances with a real audience if you can (often). Be funny. Be entertaining. Work within your limits and budget (if you don't have cash, you need creativity!). Build an audience. If you can do all that (and it is very, very hard) with a bit of luck and persistence after a few years - and it will take at least a few years - things will fall in to place for you.

Watch Glove and Boots. They work with a limited budget and do great stuff that is watched by hundreds of thousands of people on YouTube. Study what they do...after all, they have a development deal for a TV show now and that sounds like where you want to be.

 

[mupcollector1]

With respect, I think you're focused on the wrong things. I've been writing about people doing puppetry on the web for over eight years now and from what I've seen and watched trying to out-Muppet the Muppets, or copy expensive TV shows is the wrong approach. It almost always fails. I certainly understand being curious, but it doesn't matter what the budgets of The Muppet Show, Spitting Image or Les Guignols were. With the exception of Les Guignols (which is still in production), those shows were shot decades ago using complicated funding schemes, different technology and the economies involved aren't really comparable any more (they are also some of the most expensive TV shows ever produced, which is why more shows like them don't get made).

I wonder what makes them so expensive. Is it the materials of puppets and props? The Production? Also I noticed you said funding. So they would try to find ways outside the networks budget to help fund the show perhaps?
One of my thoughts in terms of pitching an idea would also maybe be a movie so therefore I would have that budget but in terms of audience positive reactions, the movie could be used as a pilot. Another thought was digital puppetry where puppeteers would perform blank foam puppets which are motion captured to a detailed GCI model into the computer as well as CGI sets and such and would be timed in real time. Yet some things would be complicated but it seems like CGI is super hip and perhaps not as expensive. I'd probably pitch that if puppetry was too expensive. I'm not sure if I mentioned but I like the idea of a huge cast and not just 5 characters and that's probably why it seems rare. My third alternative is flash animation and what's cool about animation is there's no limit in terms of budget for sets, characters, etc. But I sort of want to mix puppetry and animation. Kind of like what Jim did with The Muppets but taking things to the next level sort of speak.

My advice is to make one puppet and make some videos with it. Make a video every week and post it on YouTube. Ask for feedback...look for (constructive) criticism, not praise or compliments (praise won't help you get better at what you do). Once you master that, then build a second puppet. The key is to make something quickly and get feedback on it immediately, then repeat (and repeat again and again and...).

I have made about 50 puppet characters for a public access show I used to do and I put it on youtube and within months I took it off because a cyberbully teenage troll prankster stool my videos, make knock off versions of my characters and bullying people steeling my name, long story short, it was pretty bad. Plus my puppets where very small in scale, were made with a glue gun and within a $100 budget for 4 years. Then of course they kept wearing out and falling apart and it was too expensive to rebuild all of them.

But I totally get what your saying in terms of feedback. But personally I kind of had it with cheap avenues like youtube because I do more pro stuff now. But I guess it's much harder to contact a pro then something on YouTube. I guess the best way to but it is YouTube is like Yahoo Answers. Sure there's people who are interested but because of how the internet is, there's a bunch of kids who like to start trouble and say not nice things. And so I'm trying to find other places. Perhaps I could chat with other puppet makers.

One I talked to about possibly having them build a puppet for me just for the sake of having something more professionally made then me then I could practice performing with it and study how it's made and such but I guess it would be about under a thousand and over if I wanted blinking eyes and moving eyebrows.

What's really important is to do and master one thing at a time. This is a concept called deliberate practice (Google it or read Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers) and people who take this approach succeed much faster and much more often than people who try to take on too much too fast (this advice comes from a certain amount of first hand experience).

Sounds like an interesting book, thanks for the suggestion. I'm always looking for new books to study. In fact, I carry so many books in my laptop bag to the point where the zipper breaks all the time. lol

Also, don't use chroma-key. It's a pain in the a--

I've used Keying many years, Film making was my major in College and I've got Premiere Pro. I sort of find it fun and a time savor. But your right, it kind of looks flat and cheap. But it's tough as an indie filmmaker working on a low budget.

Become a very good puppeteer. Do live performances with a real audience if you can (often). Be funny. Be entertaining. Work within your limits and budget (if you don't have cash, you need creativity!). Build an audience. If you can do all that (and it is very, very hard) with a bit of luck and persistence after a few years - and it will take at least a few years - things will fall in to place for you.

Yes, I totally agree. I did live performances for about 8 years before my public access indie film show. And it was difficult because I never got audiences. I think one of the struggles and probably the biggest was that not many adults go to puppet shows but kids do and I 100% DISLIKE performing kids shows because I love doing adult stuff with puppets. Because I like satire in puppetry if it's spoofing pop culture or even simply modern society because I just like that idea of something that symbolizes the human world but it's not human, it's puppets. And I think the magic of puppetry is that, puppets are only hand crafted objects and the audience already knows that but it's the puppeteers duty and the writers to make this object come to life and present whatever message you'd love to get across from a simple slapstick laugh to social political points that are sometimes grim or something like that.

But yeah, I performed and build for many years and I switched to animation because I felt that I could bring my designs to life the way I vision them. But like I mentioned, I do miss performing puppets. But I guess that's what differs puppetry from animation is basically budget.

I've heard that there's tons of puppeteers always pitching adult projects and it never gets developed. I still have my puppet films on master DVDs so I'm thinking of possibly putting together a pitch package. Like a DVD of clips, introduction, animatics and a few outlines and drawings and lots of visual stuff to kind of give that idea. I didn't pitch my puppet work just yet because I want to make sure that the concept is perfect in my mind.
And also 100% creator driven which is very rare now a days I guess.

 

[mupcollector1]

I agree, I should take my time and make one puppet at a time and just practice my skills in building instead of just giving up like I have been.