IgorPonweed
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The Golden Compass Thread (Spoilers ahead!)
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frogboy4
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CensoredAlso
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As a Christian, I thought Passion of the Christ was overrated both as a religious statment and a movie, hehe. But that's just my opinion. 
I agree, we shouldn't just write "Oh I heard this" regarding the author. I just read this interview with Pullman. I agree that he is more attacking religion than God. However, this does not change what I've been saying about the movie. Here is a quote from an interview:
"But when you look at organised religion of whatever sort – whether it's Christianity in all its variants, or whether it's Islam or some forms of extreme Hinduism – wherever you see organised religion and priesthoods and power, you see cruelty and tyranny and repression. It's almost a universal law."
Again, this doesn't change anything I've been saying. His opinion is very bias and a little bigoted. Yes, religion has been distored over the years by people and used for bad means. But this is true of many Athiest leaders as well, including in the 20th and 21st century. Repression, cruelty and tyranny will exist as long as people exist, religious or athiest. If I were to psychoanalyze him, heh, I'd say it's not really religion he dislikes, it's people. And for him to focus solely on religion is narrow, inaccurate and discriminatory.
In this interview, he speaks of his bitterness about his religious father and all the hypocritical behavior he's seen from religious people. Again, you will find hypocrisy in every human being, religious or no. What he is doing is stereotyping and judging an entire group of people based on a few. Calling his own opinion "universal law" does not speak of tolerance or open mindedness; it speaks of prejudice. He is bias and it disqualifies him from making an impartial judgement, in my opinion.
http://www.surefish.co.uk/culture/features/pullman_interview.htm
I agree, we shouldn't just write "Oh I heard this" regarding the author. I just read this interview with Pullman. I agree that he is more attacking religion than God. However, this does not change what I've been saying about the movie. Here is a quote from an interview:
"But when you look at organised religion of whatever sort – whether it's Christianity in all its variants, or whether it's Islam or some forms of extreme Hinduism – wherever you see organised religion and priesthoods and power, you see cruelty and tyranny and repression. It's almost a universal law."
Again, this doesn't change anything I've been saying. His opinion is very bias and a little bigoted. Yes, religion has been distored over the years by people and used for bad means. But this is true of many Athiest leaders as well, including in the 20th and 21st century. Repression, cruelty and tyranny will exist as long as people exist, religious or athiest. If I were to psychoanalyze him, heh, I'd say it's not really religion he dislikes, it's people. And for him to focus solely on religion is narrow, inaccurate and discriminatory.
In this interview, he speaks of his bitterness about his religious father and all the hypocritical behavior he's seen from religious people. Again, you will find hypocrisy in every human being, religious or no. What he is doing is stereotyping and judging an entire group of people based on a few. Calling his own opinion "universal law" does not speak of tolerance or open mindedness; it speaks of prejudice. He is bias and it disqualifies him from making an impartial judgement, in my opinion.
http://www.surefish.co.uk/culture/features/pullman_interview.htm
Muppet Newsgirl
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Same here on "Passion." And Mom says that when people asked her if she'd seen it, she replied, "I read the book." 
Guys, let's face it - any organized authority, be it religious or secular, is full of good people who are willing to do noble things, as well as a few self-centered creeps who abuse their position. It's all about human nature - and in any case, the creeps tend to get more attention than those who do good. And it is up to the good people to counteract the creeps, wherever they are.
Guys, let's face it - any organized authority, be it religious or secular, is full of good people who are willing to do noble things, as well as a few self-centered creeps who abuse their position. It's all about human nature - and in any case, the creeps tend to get more attention than those who do good. And it is up to the good people to counteract the creeps, wherever they are.
CensoredAlso
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Yes, it's like when people ask "Why did God let this happen?" God didn't let this happen, people let this happen. We are in charge of our own actions, or inactions.
But it's true, MN, we can defend our beliefs, but we shouldn't become so "patriotic" as it were, that we stop questioning our own beliefs and leaders from time to time.
So I guess the best way to counter hypocrisy in religious people, and attacks from the outside, is to prove them wrong with our actions.
I have no doubt Mr. Pullman has encountered hypocrisy and narrowminded from religious people. And if we ever meet, I hope I can prove to him that some religious people can be trusted.
And Frogboy, it's good that you don't have a knee jerk reaction to things, and try to find good in projects other people would dismiss.
But it's true, MN, we can defend our beliefs, but we shouldn't become so "patriotic" as it were, that we stop questioning our own beliefs and leaders from time to time.
So I guess the best way to counter hypocrisy in religious people, and attacks from the outside, is to prove them wrong with our actions.
I have no doubt Mr. Pullman has encountered hypocrisy and narrowminded from religious people. And if we ever meet, I hope I can prove to him that some religious people can be trusted.
And Frogboy, it's good that you don't have a knee jerk reaction to things, and try to find good in projects other people would dismiss.
frogboy4
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Just a few off the cuff thoughts in general...
On Passion
I felt the film focused on the wrong part of the subject’s life. I admit the title informs the public of that so there is no dishonesty in the crushingly violent centerpiece. After a while the horror had a reverse affect and numbed me to said passion. The film had a saving grace for me and it was when Gibson allowed Jesus to say the line about loving your enemies. If nothing else – that sentiment could have gotten through to some of the more pious audience members. Maybe some of the same people who have shouted unsolicited hate-filled rants at me while citing God as their justification. The film was beautifully shot as well.
On People
I was raised under Christianity – both in school and church. I took it seriously then as I do now. However, personally I see Biblical text as more of a sketch than a literal heavily-bound body of work. That is to say that I don’t see the afterlife as having a velvet rope and a bouncer, but there are those out there who disagree. That’s fine as long as I am permitted not to simply live, but grow and thrive in the framework of my choosing. That’s the hard-line societal debate in the United States at the moment – how far an individual’s values encroach on another’s.
There is a sort of arrogance that comes from certain members and organizations of the religious community. It all gets lumped together as being from one mind. Also the most extreme (and sometimes out of context) demonstrations are picked up by the news. This happens with gays (the minority I associate with) all the time.
Religions have no monopoly on arrogance. Not too off topic, but I never attend San Francisco’s parades and festivities because at 33 I’ve been out over 16 years and don’t see the need. 95% of it is quite tame compared to normal TV viewing hours, but not all of it. When trying to walk home through the City Hall area, the way I always go, the booths and festivities made it difficult. Some parents were out with their kids and it was cute until I saw what I will only describe as an extreme leather-themed booth in broad daylight and unavoidable in my path. I was not shocked nor do I condemn the tastes of the participants, but that is not and never should be the place for such a display! I was livid. And of course religious and conservative news organizations snap up photos of that one niche corner to describe 365 days of an entire minority. The well-funded organizers of that section could have easily made a tent or enclosure.
I have had countless terrible experiences with people and organizations professing to be of the Christian faith, but refuse to paint every Christian and religious person I meet with the same wide brush. One niche, no matter how large it might seem (it’s usually the small nutty groups that talk the loudest) to spoil things for people on all sides. There’s what I call “Christian condescension” that comes from those few pesky zealots we all know that still talk to us commoners while reminding us that we’re wrong and they’re “praying for us to come around” in such a way that almost smacks of them trying to convince themselves most of all. This same condescension comes from many other fringe groups. Now, these groups might not be as big or as organized as the modern Christian, but that terrible way of treating people that respectfully disagree is still there! There’s some sort of activist gene in people of all walks that serves to irritate me. I love a good debate as long as it is respectful and even-handed. It is the representatives that cause the harm in most cases, not any specific belief.
On Pullman
I just saw some recent pointed questions answered by the Golden Compass author on YouTube. Pullman is definitely an atheist. By nature his work is tinted with that perspective. I still have no full-fledged view on the matter, but he has most recently stated that he’s posing questions to the readers and allowing them their own conclusions. He is arrogant (as are most artists and authors) but I don’t see it as some huge atheistic campaign. Maybe it is more an exposure of a point of view so that it can at least be respected and not encroached upon? Some more controversial scenes (as reported by an atheism site) have been edited from the film as not to offend religious audiences. This has been taken as a conspiracy by the atheist movement. I always find it interesting how so many stances can be take on an issue.
“The Compass’ Death of God”
I am uncertain what the definition of god is in the books. Is it a false god, the real God? Either way it reportedly doesn’t happen until the third book. Someday I will be reading these.
Closing
I can understand the choices of how to invest one's time and money. I do get tired of hidden propaganda and manipulation in films that should be more straight-forward. I also get irate at individuals who do the same or encroach on my doorstep or while walking down the street holding the hand of someone I love deeply. There is value in all of us. We should all try harder to see it in each other and cherish it.
On Passion
I felt the film focused on the wrong part of the subject’s life. I admit the title informs the public of that so there is no dishonesty in the crushingly violent centerpiece. After a while the horror had a reverse affect and numbed me to said passion. The film had a saving grace for me and it was when Gibson allowed Jesus to say the line about loving your enemies. If nothing else – that sentiment could have gotten through to some of the more pious audience members. Maybe some of the same people who have shouted unsolicited hate-filled rants at me while citing God as their justification. The film was beautifully shot as well.
On People
I was raised under Christianity – both in school and church. I took it seriously then as I do now. However, personally I see Biblical text as more of a sketch than a literal heavily-bound body of work. That is to say that I don’t see the afterlife as having a velvet rope and a bouncer, but there are those out there who disagree. That’s fine as long as I am permitted not to simply live, but grow and thrive in the framework of my choosing. That’s the hard-line societal debate in the United States at the moment – how far an individual’s values encroach on another’s.
There is a sort of arrogance that comes from certain members and organizations of the religious community. It all gets lumped together as being from one mind. Also the most extreme (and sometimes out of context) demonstrations are picked up by the news. This happens with gays (the minority I associate with) all the time.
Religions have no monopoly on arrogance.
Not too off topic, but I never attend San Francisco’s parades and festivities because at 33 I’ve been out over 16 years and don’t see the need. 95% of it is quite tame compared to normal TV viewing hours, but not all of it. When trying to walk home through the City Hall area, the way I always go, the booths and festivities made it difficult. Some parents were out with their kids and it was cute until I saw what I will only describe as an extreme leather-themed booth in broad daylight and unavoidable in my path. I was not shocked nor do I condemn the tastes of the participants, but that is not and never should be the place for such a display! I was livid. And of course religious and conservative news organizations snap up photos of that one niche corner to describe 365 days of an entire minority. The well-funded organizers of that section could have easily made a tent or enclosure.I have had countless terrible experiences with people and organizations professing to be of the Christian faith, but refuse to paint every Christian and religious person I meet with the same wide brush. One niche, no matter how large it might seem (it’s usually the small nutty groups that talk the loudest) to spoil things for people on all sides. There’s what I call “Christian condescension” that comes from those few pesky zealots we all know that still talk to us commoners while reminding us that we’re wrong and they’re “praying for us to come around” in such a way that almost smacks of them trying to convince themselves most of all. This same condescension comes from many other fringe groups. Now, these groups might not be as big or as organized as the modern Christian, but that terrible way of treating people that respectfully disagree is still there! There’s some sort of activist gene in people of all walks that serves to irritate me. I love a good debate as long as it is respectful and even-handed. It is the representatives that cause the harm in most cases, not any specific belief.
On Pullman
I just saw some recent pointed questions answered by the Golden Compass author on YouTube. Pullman is definitely an atheist. By nature his work is tinted with that perspective. I still have no full-fledged view on the matter, but he has most recently stated that he’s posing questions to the readers and allowing them their own conclusions. He is arrogant (as are most artists and authors) but I don’t see it as some huge atheistic campaign. Maybe it is more an exposure of a point of view so that it can at least be respected and not encroached upon? Some more controversial scenes (as reported by an atheism site) have been edited from the film as not to offend religious audiences. This has been taken as a conspiracy by the atheist movement. I always find it interesting how so many stances can be take on an issue.
“The Compass’ Death of God”
I am uncertain what the definition of god is in the books. Is it a false god, the real God? Either way it reportedly doesn’t happen until the third book. Someday I will be reading these.
Closing
I can understand the choices of how to invest one's time and money. I do get tired of hidden propaganda and manipulation in films that should be more straight-forward. I also get irate at individuals who do the same or encroach on my doorstep or while walking down the street holding the hand of someone I love deeply. There is value in all of us. We should all try harder to see it in each other and cherish it.
CensoredAlso
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I also don't like it when religious groups are judgemental and don't respect different views and beliefs. The thing is, again, I see this from Athiests too. And from what I've read of Pullman, I see it from him as well. And I'm not going to excuse him because religion is imperfect. Everything is imperfect.
When we have a problem with something in this world, we try to fix it. We don't reject everything's that good about something simply because there is also bad.
I don't mind that Pullman is an Athiest. I can understand and respect that. But from what I've seen, he is not doing the same for religious people in his books.
Frogboy, I understand what you mean about "love your enemies", and I'm truely sorry you have been treated badly by some people who don't want tolerance or understanding. It's just that some religious people can be trusted, and Pullman's work does not seem to take that into account. He is not preaching tolerance and understanding. And those are two things I want too.
This has been a really good discussion, btw. I should see the film, so I know for sure what I'm talking about, lol. But, I will most likely rent it. I want there to be more respect and understanding in this world for everybody, and I'm just not seeing it from this movie.
When we have a problem with something in this world, we try to fix it. We don't reject everything's that good about something simply because there is also bad.
I don't mind that Pullman is an Athiest. I can understand and respect that. But from what I've seen, he is not doing the same for religious people in his books.
Frogboy, I understand what you mean about "love your enemies", and I'm truely sorry you have been treated badly by some people who don't want tolerance or understanding. It's just that some religious people can be trusted, and Pullman's work does not seem to take that into account. He is not preaching tolerance and understanding. And those are two things I want too.
This has been a really good discussion, btw. I should see the film, so I know for sure what I'm talking about, lol. But, I will most likely rent it. I want there to be more respect and understanding in this world for everybody, and I'm just not seeing it from this movie.
frogboy4
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Thanks. Yeah, it's been a fun discussion. The thing about mean people is that they come in all varieties and finger-wagging is easier than introspection. City living makes that both harder and easier. I see all sorts of people everyday – but how many do I actually see? I try to be aware of that.I also don't like it when religious groups are judgemental and don't respect different views and beliefs. The thing is, again, I see this from Athiests too. And from what I've read of Pullman, I see it from him as well. And I'm not going to excuse him because religion is imperfect. Everything is imperfect.
When we have a problem with something in this world, we try to fix it. We don't reject everything's that good about something simply because there is also bad.
I don't mind that Pullman is an Athiest. I can understand and respect that. But from what I've seen, he is not doing the same for religious people in his books.
Frogboy, I understand what you mean about "love your enemies", and I'm truely sorry you have been treated badly by some people who don't want tolerance or understanding. It's just that some religious people can be trusted, and Pullman's work does not seem to take that into account. He is not preaching tolerance and understanding. And those are two things I want too.
This has been a really good discussion, btw. I should see the film, so I know for sure what I'm talking about, lol. But, I will most likely rent it. I want there to be more respect and understanding in this world for everybody, and I'm just not seeing it from this movie.
You know, I haven't used it, but my friends NetFlix all the time. It's a way of seeing things that limits the degree of support to give a project. I'm getting whatever multidisk set comes out for Compass as I did for Narnia. Speaking of Narnia - you will likely see the same effects team for next year's Narnia installment. Hope it's handled as well. Looking forward to that! Yes, and I'm looking forward to Hellboy 2.
I'm not as impressed with Pullman either. He did appear to tip-toe around some of the questions he answered. Maybe I'll put him in the Woody Allen category - dislike his personal choices, but still enjoy much of his product. Of course all this is being posted by a guy who watches Fox News more than Comedy Central for amusement. It does have quite the comedic value for the basic cable dollar and it’s so in-faux-taining!
CensoredAlso
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Yeah it's definitely a lot harder to get to know people than we think. I often find my first impressions to be wrong once I talk with a person for a longer period of time...Which can be good or bad depending on the person, lol.
I know people who use NetFlix, they say it's good. Oh I didn't know they were making a Hellboy 2, that movie was so cool! Narnia was good too, glad they're doing the other installments. It's just that I'm a bigger Lord of the Rings fans, lol. Did you know Tolkein called Lewis' Narnia books, "As bad as they could possibly be!" LOL. It's OK though, they were best friends, lol.
Lol, I know a few Woody Allen fans who feel the same way! It is a rather awkward situation, heh. But yeah we often have to separate movies from the people who make them in order to like them. A teacher I had once told us that the corruption of business should not interfere with the enjoyment of a good film.
About "Passion of the Christ", I guess when it came down to it, I didn't think they should have made a film focused solely on the Passion story. The older films about Jesus that I have admired went through his entire life. I feel that provides more opportunity for character development and identifying with the characters. With "Passion" it was like "Oh well we know you already know these people, let's get on with it!" And that's not what I like in a movie. I want to get to know the characters and then feel bad for them.
I know people who use NetFlix, they say it's good. Oh I didn't know they were making a Hellboy 2, that movie was so cool! Narnia was good too, glad they're doing the other installments. It's just that I'm a bigger Lord of the Rings fans, lol. Did you know Tolkein called Lewis' Narnia books, "As bad as they could possibly be!" LOL. It's OK though, they were best friends, lol.
Lol, I know a few Woody Allen fans who feel the same way! It is a rather awkward situation, heh. But yeah we often have to separate movies from the people who make them in order to like them. A teacher I had once told us that the corruption of business should not interfere with the enjoyment of a good film.
About "Passion of the Christ", I guess when it came down to it, I didn't think they should have made a film focused solely on the Passion story. The older films about Jesus that I have admired went through his entire life. I feel that provides more opportunity for character development and identifying with the characters. With "Passion" it was like "Oh well we know you already know these people, let's get on with it!" And that's not what I like in a movie. I want to get to know the characters and then feel bad for them.
frogboy4
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Just a Hellboy 2 update
I used to have an unfavorable view of the Hellboy comics before seeing the film. I hadn't really gone through them and seen how mostly fantasy it is - not really pertaining to any particular theology. Even my missionary brother (yes, that's right) admitted to enjoying what he saw on the DVD. However he did admit to the whole thing as being preposterous - which it so delightfully is.
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Pitch:The mythical world starts a rebellion against humanity in order to rule the Earth, so Hellboy and his team must save the world from the rebellious creatures.
Director/Writer: Guillermo del Toro (of Hellboy I and Pan's Labyrinth)
Inspired by the Mike Mignola graphic novels.
Cast: Ron Perlman, Selma Blair, Doug Jones (with voice work again by David Hyde Pierce), Jeffrey Tambor and John Hurt.
Release Date: July 11, 2008
I used to have an unfavorable view of the Hellboy comics before seeing the film. I hadn't really gone through them and seen how mostly fantasy it is - not really pertaining to any particular theology. Even my missionary brother (yes, that's right) admitted to enjoying what he saw on the DVD. However he did admit to the whole thing as being preposterous - which it so delightfully is.
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Pitch:The mythical world starts a rebellion against humanity in order to rule the Earth, so Hellboy and his team must save the world from the rebellious creatures.
Director/Writer: Guillermo del Toro (of Hellboy I and Pan's Labyrinth)
Inspired by the Mike Mignola graphic novels.
Cast: Ron Perlman, Selma Blair, Doug Jones (with voice work again by David Hyde Pierce), Jeffrey Tambor and John Hurt.
Release Date: July 11, 2008