The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

Someone BESIDES Peter Griffin once said that homosexuals should have the right to be married so they can be as miserable as the rest of us. Truer words were never spoken.

Now, not trying to step on any toes, but marriage is a human ritualistic ceremony. It's all about symbolism that NO ONE wants to bother with anymore. All the time you see quicky marriages that end up in despair and people marrying for all the wrong reasons, all ending in divorce... really, we want to think of divorce as this painful thing that's a last ditch effort... and it's only to be used in emergencies like if things just can't be worked out or worse... if one of the two is any matter of abusive. It usually isn't. heck, my cousin was shotgun married over the summer (and I have so many bad feelings about it, and I don't want to fill anything else with even MORE unnecessary emotional baggage)... that's probably not going to end well.

There's just so much about marriage that bugs me... some people just can't be in omitted relationships. Some people just can't FIND themselves in one, even if they try.

As for the "god is a fairy tale" stuff... this is how I tend to think... you can either accept the belief in one or you can question it. As long as you can respect why the other party sees that way. There is NO enlightenment in refusing the other side, but there is in a very well crafted respectful discussion. Truth is, we really DON'T know how we got here, we don't know why we're here, and we may never ever find out. We just have various theories, some that support a creator god, some that don't. There are even some in the middle who believe in a higher power, but they don't feel it created everything at least in that way.

The problem lies in with bitterness. Both sides of anything can't stand each other because of the loud vocal minorities on both sides... it's like this in religion, politics...everything. The Athiest movement came out of people who were bitter at bitter "religious" (note quotations) nuts... same way the "Moral" Majority came out of Hippies in the 70's. One extremist group breads another. And the only thing that bitterness gets is suffering and profits from shifty types that profit off the misery of others. The people in the middle (especially the Moe Syzlak types like myself who want no part of anything) are the ones that get hurt the most since we're willing to listen to the other side IF they can handle a persuasive, mild mannered, and respectful discussion of their views. Too bad we never get them, and too bad when we do, they're easilly ignored.

I'll cite an example.

Former Speaker and likely 2012 Presidential candidate Newt Gingrich was raised by an unwed teenage mother for much of his life. He's had three marriages and two divorces that were caused by his wild infidelities. Somehow his narcissism renders him exempt from his rules for others because he was preaching piety throughout all of his debauchery. All of this is a statement of fact, but he's the guy that keeps citing God and continues to proclaim that gay marriage is fascist and poisonous to the country. I'd say "Pot-meet kettle" but gay families haven't statistically produced children with less happy or successful lives. Divorce and infidelity wreaks havoc, but you know - none of it is anyone's business anyway. People should just live their lives and allow others to do the same. Leaders like him aren't interested in sharing, they want ideological domination.

I'm not an anarchist and don't want to take down the establishment. Me and my friends, we just want to live our lives and thrive alongside people of all beliefs - none supreme over the other. The gay scapegoat won't last forever. The angry people of this world will eventually have to find someone else to dislike for preposterous reasons. Dr Seuss said it best with his Sneetches. Why do some deserve less dignity and respect than others?

 

[Drtooth]

Former Speaker and likely 2012 Presidential candidate Newt Gingrich was raised by an unwed teenage mother for much of his life. He's had three marriages and two divorces that were caused by his wild infidelities. Somehow his narcissism renders him exempt from his rules for others because he was preaching piety throughout all of his debauchery. All of this is a statement of fact, but he's the guy that keeps citing God and continues to proclaim that gay marriage is fascist and poisonous to the country. I'd say "Pot-meet kettle" but gay families haven't statistically produced children with less happy or successful lives. Divorce and infidelity wreaks havoc, but you know - none of it is anyone's business anyway. People should just live their lives and allow others to do the same. Leaders like him aren't interested in sharing, they want ideological domination.

I can't really get on that without starting the obvious political banter... I hate the right's claim to piety as much as I hate the left's passive aggressiveness. This all dated back to the 1970's, and the founding of the "Moral Majority" which again came out of people not liking Hippies, and praising a war they were too old and out of shape to fight themselves.

The pink menace is the far far right (again, distinctly different from the moderate right) pandering to an easy to manipulate public. The very same "religious" base that neo-Cons mock behind their backs, after they got their votes. Sigh... I wish the Log Cabin would be a little more vocal against that stuff, but at least they're vocal FOR repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell... On the other hand the moderate left is too afraid to discuss the rights of the homosexual community. Both parties quite stink at this, if you ask me. But hey, at least the left is TOUGH on happy meal prizes and mothers who bring cupcakes to school... those are REAL menaces. But that's enough of that.

What it all comes down to is sometimes you have to make your OWN choices about what to think. Unfortunately, so few do that, and just digest corporate sponsored, loud "opinions" that it creates completes posers and zombies. I'm not saying the left isn't guilty... just the right does it MUCH MUCH MUCH better. And there's a lot of bitterness from both sides against the others, and religion comes into it. I do NOT like religion and politics meshing, as I said, you don't get politics according to the word of God, you get the word of God according TO politics. And that's dangerous.

 

[Bannanasketch]

Glad I found this thread....

I'm just gonna say it like it is:

I am a Christian and I am a conservative. I also believe homosexuality is a sin. I believe in what the bible says so I believe homosexuality is sexual immorality and it is a sin.

With that out of the way....

I DO NOT believe that gays should be bullied and brought down. There are so many people in the world that have the completely wrong view on homosexuality. These are the people that hold up the 'God hates fags' signs and think all gays are going straight to **** so we should distance ourselves from them. I couldnt disagree more. There is the misconception out there that God hates gays. This is definitely not true! The bible says that God loves everyone. That also means God loves gays. I don't believe that it is our job as christians to judge whether gays are going to **** or not. That is God's job and not ours. Many christians are such hypocrites in their thinking of homosexuality. Jesus loves all people. Most of his time on earth, Jesus spent a lot of time with the most hated sinners. What would he say if he were on Earth today?

If only there were more Christians in the world that could start reading the bible as a whole and stop picking out the parts thaey wanted to hear. I wish I could say that it gets better but with a lot of hypocrites out in the world, I just don't know.

 

[frogboy4]

Glad I found this thread....

I'm just gonna say it like it is:

I am a Christian and I am a conservative. I also believe homosexuality is a sin. I believe in what the bible says so I believe homosexuality is sexual immorality and it is a sin.

With that out of the way....

I DO NOT believe that gays should be bullied and brought down. There are so many people in the world that have the completely wrong view on homosexuality. These are the people that hold up the 'God hates fags' signs and think all gays are going straight to **** so we should distance ourselves from them. I couldnt disagree more. There is the misconception out there that God hates gays. This is definitely not true! The bible says that God loves everyone. That also means God loves gays. I don't believe that it is our job as christians to judge whether gays are going to **** or not. That is God's job and not ours. Many christians are such hypocrites in their thinking of homosexuality. Jesus loves all people. Most of his time on earth, Jesus spent a lot of time with the most hated sinners. What would he say if he were on Earth today?

If only there were more Christians in the world that could start reading the bible as a whole and stop picking out the parts thaey wanted to hear. I wish I could say that it gets better but with a lot of hypocrites out in the world, I just don't know.

I appreciate that you distinguished your view point and decisions from what everyone has to accept. Even though I do take exception at being labeled a sinner for being gay (not even Jesus is reported to have said that outright), it's clear that belief comes from the religious dogma that you have chosen for yourself and there are many others who believe the same way. It's interesting to hear a different voice in this thread - especially one that comprehends the idea of grace. That isn't employed much by any group these days. It's so cool to see it in this thread.

I think Christians, gay people and all people should offer grace to one another, get along and equally thrive in their way of life without anyone standing in their way.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I still say it simply: God is Love, and Jesus is representative of God in the flesh, and so therefore is also love. To be Christian means to be Christlike, and unless that love for others is in your heart - unconditionally! - then you are not Christlike and therefore are not a true Christian, regardless what religion you say you are.

After all, look at the kind of people Jesus chose to be his disciples!

As always, I contradict myself some: This is obviously mentioned within reason. If someone killed someone I loved I would not love that person, nor would I wish the justice system to take it easy on them. It seems hypocritical to say that; but, it's true. There may be someone else out there who could do that, but it ain't me.

So, am I a Christian? Yes, but am I a good one? I could be better at it.

 

[Bannanasketch]

Thanks for your comment, Fozzie bear! I completely agree with yo and at times it is very hard for us to love others. We can always remember we have God on our side, and he can help us love. There are a lot of people out there that claim to be christians but don't do what the bible says and love. James 1:22-25 tells us:

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

We need more christians that can live like Jesus and love others just like the bible says!

 

[CensoredAlso]

As always, I contradict myself some: This is obviously mentioned within reason. If someone killed someone I loved I would not love that person, nor would I wish the justice system to take it easy on them.

I understand your feelings on the matter; I think Jesus' words of "love thy enemy" is probably one of the hardest things for any of us to accomplish. As far as the act of murder, I would definitely support life in prison because people have to be protected. But I draw the line at the death penalty. Mercy isn't only for the innocent. Otherwise it wouldn't be mercy at all. : )

But again, it's definitely not easy to forgive and love the worst among us (Heck it's hard to forgive our own families sometimes!) But I think Jesus wouldn't have asked it of us if he didn't think we were capable of it. If he can forgive the people who put him to death, then I think he's asking us to do the same for the people who hurt us. : )

 

[GonzoLeaper]

A lot of good thoughts here. I agree with bananasketch. You said it very well there.
This is something I've expounded on before and I get tired of so many times that it gets miscontrued.
I will tell you straight out that yes, I am a follower of Jesus and I believe what The Bible says. And The Bible does call homosexuality a sin. It also calls hypocrisy a sin. There's also lying, stealing, adultery, greed, jealousy, hatred, envy, coveting, idol worshipping, cowardice, drunkeness, witchcraft, cursing and foul language, disobedience, malice and rage and still others sins.
It also says that it's all equally bad. James 2:10 says that if anyone stumbles at any one part of the Law, they're guilty of breaking all of it.
So anyone who claims to be a Christian is already guilty of breaking all of the law just as much as anyone else because we've all broken the law and done wrong things.
So I don't claim to be better than anyone else. And the point I wanted to make with this is that everyone is a sinner because we are born with it, due to the fall of man in Genesis 3. So I'm not trying to single any particular sin out for constituting a "sinner".
But the Good News is that God did make all of us in His image. We went astray and because of our sin desperately needed His grace. He provided His grace through Jesus' death and Resurrection. God demonstrated His love for us in that. That is the only way of salvation. And His life is what gives me meaning and physical life and life abundant and life eternal.
That is what I believe.
And God loves everyone. And thus I love everyone because God commands me to for one, and because of the love He's shown to me. And The Bible says to speak the truth in love.
And I hate to see so many groups that speak more like half-truths and/or outright lies with hatred and vile.
And for the record, I have known gay people and have been good friends with them in fact. I have some gay friends along with a lot of other friends who are not Christians and believe differently from me. And that's okay. We get along just fine because we can agree to disagree on beliefs. And I've actually found a number of things I agree with them on- well, what do you know?
Because the other thing I really dislike and I don't believe in is using force and/or bullying to bring someone to your point of view. This is something Jesus never did. He definitely always spoke the truth in love. That is what I believe in- showing people Christ's love through word and deed. All I want to share is what Christ has done for me and the promises He makes. People have to make their own decisions about what to do with Christ from there.
And Jesus Himself said that He didn't come into the world to condemn people but to save them!
As the Beatles almost said, all you need is God's love. I wish more Christians were truly making sure that was first and foremost in their actions and speech.

 

[RedPiggy]

It also says that it's all equally bad.

How so? The logic of the 'phobes is that it is called an "abomination". Murder? Not really. Now, one has to wonder how seriously to take the use of the word when wearing polyester/cotton blends also are abominations. Or eating shrimp. Yes, we all sin, but clearly the bible has preferences.

James 2:10 says that if anyone stumbles at any one part of the Law, they're guilty of breaking all of it.

I can agree to a certain extent, but the idea that cutting someone off in traffic is as bad as, say, genocide is just downright silly. There are valid reasons some issues are considered more severe than others. The problem is when people start just labeling things as severe (like homosexuality or wearing two types of cloth) when they just really aren't. It makes the person who made up the rule look ridiculous and delusional. The WHOLE reason such things were called abominations was to keep Hebrews from going over to the "fun" temples, where you could do more than listen to some bitter priest tell you God hates you. The priests who wrote the rules were ramping up the punishments (that they were probably the ones who would mete out) so that they could keep a forced loyalty. And it was really a moot point anyway because the bible and archaeology agree the "Joe Q Public" never really listened to the priests/prophets as much as they thought the public should.

But the Good News is that God did make all of us in His image.

And yet we're all born sinners. Everyone has a right to their beliefs, but some beliefs ought to be thought out more. Others came up with Original Sin. It's not inherent in the text that's referenced for it. Instead, the A&E story sounds more like a harsh coming-of-age story, where some naive kids heard an eye-opener of a story and God got irritated. The original point seems to be that we mess up, miss the mark, whatever as a result of biological desire (note that Eve first mentions how delicious the fruit looks, not any of the other reasons) and naivety/ignorance. Had Genesis gone down like the NT authors claimed it did, there was really no reason at all for God to keep A&E around. He could just as easily have vaporized them and started over. Instead, He doesn't kill them, lets them live to just shy of a 1000 years, and continue to spread their genes all over the place. Some punishment. However, this makes total sense if you realize God gives them this slap on the wrist because He realizes they screwed up, not willfully flipping God off. It's the same thing with Cain. He lets his emotions get the best of him and doesn't seem to grasp just what he really did. God thus protects him from harm and lets him found a city. Christianity loves to latch onto God's fury, but with a more objective reading of the text, a lot of people get away with, well, murder. God forgives a lot more than He actually punishes.

And Jesus Himself said that He didn't come into the world to condemn people but to save them!

The hardest part of determining what Jesus wanted is you really have two of them: Hippie Jesus and Rambo Jesus. I'm willing to accept the idea He's probably a mixture of both, but it's trying to fish out His true personality that's the issue.

 

[frogboy4]

I'm pleasantly surprised by the post here...

Ultimately, it's not only about love. It's also about living and letting others to live as well.

How I believe things should be:

Christians and other religious groups should be able to worship openly in this country without fear of losing their right to do so from any political action committee with a particular vendetta.

Gay men and women should have the right to live, thrive and have families just like everyone else in this country without having particular religious political agendas painting them in the same light as polygamists or animal abusers and preventing their equal rights.

Nobody should be made to live a half-life because of a group's arbitrary agenda about individuals they've never met. That is the very essence of civil rights. However, some groups feel they should have more rights than others.

Persecution is just as ugly in any light. I hate all shades of bullies no matter where they come from or what their reasons are for being so.

I'd also like to add something that's been on my mind a great deal - the fact that most religious-centered political pundits cite America as a Judeo-Christian nation and that all of our life and rights stem from that. That can always be debated to death, but the one thing that can't is how quickly the Judeo portion is forgotten in many other areas of American life after the cable television lights go dim. There is still much unspoken anti-Semitism that is swept under the carpet. A gross illustration of that is the recent behavior by high-profile, right-wingers in Texas trying to replace Jewish Republican House Speaker Joe Straus with a Christian conservative.

It would be nice is we not only "agreed to disagree" but permitted others to thrive under their different beliefs. "Peoples is peoples." I use a Muppet film quote because the Muppets wouldn't be who and what they are without the diversity of their performers, writers, directors and crew - all of whom deserve equal rights like everybody else.