Steve Whitmire has left the Muppets, Matt Vogel to continue as Kermit

wiley207

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Disney does plenty of 2D outside of the film scene.

"They were 2D, that's why they did poorly" also seems like an easy excuse. They could be chalked up to poor release timing, but like, Home on the Range didn't underperform because it wasn't CG; it just sucks and people could tell.
I do wish Disney was still doing 2D hand-drawn animation, even if they just limit it to classic-style shorts for the time being; they'd still look great. (After all, Disney started out with shorts.) "The Princess and the Frog" wasn't as big a hit Disney hoped (but it was definitely more successful than "Bolt" was), but that could be because of how it was pitted against "Avatar," and quite a few people thought "The Princess and the Frog" was just a "little girls' movie" or something. And then Disney apparently intentionally sabotaged any hopes of success for "Winnie the Pooh," and blamed it on using hand-drawn animation. It seems they still feel in the back of their mind that medium is dead, and John Lasseter has given up trying to convince them otherwise. But like I said, "Frozen" and "Zootopia" were such great films, actually feeling similar to Disney's best output prior to this century (though "Zootopia" mainly reminded me of a more modernized "Robin Hood.")

Geez, this whole "Steve Whitmire was fired by Disney" thing has gotten ugly, and is making the company look bad. Hmm, I wonder if I should do one of my Big Bad Wolf fursuit vlogs about it, like I did months ago about Disney's need to do live-action remakes of their animated classics.
 

D'Snowth

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They were more commercially successful in that they had several different shows going on all three of the major networks during the 70s and into the 80s, while Jim only had TMS, which went straight to syndication in America (which was considered television dumping grounds at the time).

In fact, Marty shared an anecdote one time about meeting Lisa Henson and her confessing to him that she hated he and Sid for the very reason mentioned above: they were the ones who had all the shows on all the different networks, while her father only had one, and she didn't understand why, so Marty told her, "Your father was a much better puppeteer than us," because again, Jim put more effort into creating something artistic, while the Kroffts basically just went for the mass of whatever they could crank out for whatever the networks were willing to offer them, because they weren't as interested in the art like Jim was.

Or, at least, this is the way Marty explains it.
 

Censored

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They were more commercially successful in that they had several different shows going on all three of the major networks during the 70s and into the 80s, while Jim only had TMS, which went straight to syndication in America (which was considered television dumping grounds at the time).

In fact, Marty shared an anecdote one time about meeting Lisa Henson and her confessing to him that she hated he and Sid for the very reason mentioned above: they were the ones who had all the shows on all the different networks, while her father only had one, and she didn't understand why, so Marty told her, "Your father was a much better puppeteer than us," because again, Jim put more effort into creating something artistic, while the Kroffts basically just went for the mass of whatever they could crank out for whatever the networks were willing to offer them, because they weren't as interested in the art like Jim was.

Or, at least, this is the way Marty explains it.
I guess it depends on how you define commercial success. Because Jim's characters have certainly better stood the test of time over the decades. Sid and Marty's work, though great, appears to have been virtually forgotten except in specific circles. I wonder if all of the members here even know what we're referring to. But, yes, I loved it.
 

Censored

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I will say this: Sid and Marty Krofft had enough business smarts to take on McDonald's and win. The reason why you haven't seen characters like Mayor McCheese and Officer Big Mac at McDonalds for decades is because they were ruled to be copyright infringements of the Krofft characters.
 

D'Snowth

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Sure, we even have a Krofft thread somewhere in the General Discussion board: check it out sometime.

I get where you're coming from though, in regards to the Muppets standing the test of time (really, Krofft shows are almost painfully dated) and having a lot of great merchandising and all, but back then, Jim always had to find ways to get funding for whatever he was producing, whether he used whatever revenue he got from the commercials he made, to whoever was willing to finance (like Lord Grade for TMS, TMM, GMC, and DC), whereas the Kroffts got their financing from the networks who were willing to take chances with them. Granted, the budgets the networks offered were slim and the Kroffts found themselves over budget a lot in their earlier days - particularly H.R. PUFNSTUF being shot on film at Paramount Studios.

Interestingly enough, Michael Eisner had a hand in getting both the Kroffts and Jim work: Eisner greenlit some Krofft shows for ABC (including an unsold pilot for a primetime variety show called FOL-DE-ROL, which is actually on YouTube), not to mention also greenlit THE MUPPETS' VALENTINE SHOW for Jim. I guess this is one thing we can say in Eisner's favor: he must have appreciated the art of puppetry to be a champion of both the Muppets and Krofft.

As for the lawsuit, yeah. And ironically, McDonald's originally commissioned the Kroffts to create those characters and those settings for them, but then told the Kroffts they decided to go in a different direction, so they stopped their art department, and that was supposedly that . . . until a few months later when the Kroffts saw the commercials were still made and airing without their permission/consent.
 

Muppetboy09

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Oh yeah, it's Monday again. I would say I doubt it gets posted today, but I would love to be proven wrong.
 

scooterfan360

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Hmmm… I’m a HUGE fan of Sid and Marty Krofft’s work, but I don’t see where they were more commercially successful than Jim Henson. The Muppets have outlasted them in merchandise, time, and popularity. Even a non-muppet fan knows Kermit and Miss Piggy, but sometimes it’s a struggle to convince anyone that H.R. Pufnstuf and Lidsville even existed.
sid and Marty krofft was only successful at getting their work on the three major networks, CBS, NBC, and ABC, all three of those networks said no to Jim.
 
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