Separating the art from the artist: Is it always possible?

[scooterfan360]

I thought you said that you didn't believe the allegation.

no I said that I don't believe Chelsea handler, But I do believe the other women.

 

[Pig'sSaysAdios]

no I said that I don't believe Chelsea handler, But I do believe the other women.

Ah I see.

 

[scooterfan360]

Ah I see.

it really gripes me, that she came on et and said what she said, a few days after they announced the charges against bill cosby were dropped. as you can see, I'm not fond of people who make false allegations like that. they automatically go on my hate list. Chelsea did it to be funny and for kicks, but I didn't find it funny. sexual assault is no joke, nether is rape.

 

[Drtooth]

Another wrinkle in Robin Williams' tragedy. The more successful he became as Mork, the harder it became for him to shake that image. Just a year after Mork, he had to stop in the middle of his stand-up act because the audience kept shouting him down with chants of "MORK! MORK! MORK!"

I just realized something about that. That is the actual other definition of separating the art from the artist. Realizing the art isn't the artist. When a character becomes something more than the creator and/or actor, that's when the public only sees them as their TV/movie persona or even "That (such and such) guy." That's why so many actors got pigeon holed and type cast. Happened with Bela Lugosi, turning him from actor into "that Dracula Guy." Also, Adam West after Batman. And yes, for whatever you can say about Family Guy, I respect the fact that they hired Adam West and Carrie Fisher and didn't tie them into their famous roles (though Carrie was in one of the Star Wars parody episodes, but not as the same character).

Sometimes the fans have to remember, they were in that one thing we liked, but they don't have to be defined by it.

 

[D'Snowth]

I see where Malcolm-Jamal Warner is playing the race card and saying it's a double-standard that Bill Cosby is now a marked man for what he did but Woody Allen has gotten off scot free for the same thing. I really had no idea that Woody Allen of all people did the same thing, and like with it being hard to believe Cosby - the image of the all-American dad - would do something like this, it's equally difficult to imagine a neurotic and insecure wimp like Woody Allen would do the same.

 

[Drtooth]

I kinda have to agree on this... Woody Allen is pretty much famous for what he did with his adoptive daughter, and yet he's still beloved for his artsy films, even though they're nowhere good as they used to be (but that affects all directors). And it's true that he's all but forgiven for it, and there are some that still think he's terrible. Of course, Woody never had a position to speak of high morality, so that seems to be why it's overlooked.

I'd say the think that we neglect to take account in about Bill is that he seems pretty remorseless and that brings a subtle air of guilt to how he's perceived. Even if it was the case he was innocent, if you'd be convicted of something that terrible and you didn't do it, wouldn't you be constantly depressed or lash out or something? I don't get that from him. And I think there are some who knew he did it and no matter what are more angry that he's not even slightly apologetic about it. So if he isn't guilty, he sure doesn't look or act it, and if he is guilty, his arrogance only incriminates him further. I think that's what makes it worse.

Now, the news article that really has me weirded out is the fact that they apparently found the O.J. Simpson trail murder weapon just as the TV show about the trial is on the air! Forget separating the art from the artist, how about separating real life from TV based on real life? How can we not see it as some bizarre coincidence that's too darn coincidental to be coincidental, or even as a strange publicity stunt for the series if you're deep into conspiracy? There's got to be some odd connection between the show and this happening. Somehow I think it's a case of them having the evidence the whole time, forgetting about it, and then seeing the TV show and saying "OH! The thing! I completely forgot we had it." Or it could be false evidence that just managed to be reported because of the show's popularity. Or any conspiracy theory in between.

 

[Convincing John]

You know, this has been something I've been thinking about for a while. I was a big fan of Bill Cosby. I didn't get his stand up LPs until I was in college, but like most of us here, I watched Cosby on Picture Pages, Fat Albert, classic Sesame Street sketches and of course, the Electric Company.

Now, speaking of the Electric Company, I want to bring up something the recent events may have affected. Anyone out there have Comcast for their cable company? If you do, let me tell you something: watch your HBO schedule and do a search to DVR The Electric Company. HBO will list classic 1970's episodes of The Electric Company from time to time. They even list in the descriptions "Rita Moreno, Skip Hinnant, Judy Graubart," etc. But, when it comes time for these episodes to air, these episodes are pulled from the schedule and replaced with the new Electric Company from the 2000's.

True, sometimes TV schedules change...but this has happened with ALL classic episodes of the Electric Company. They are ALL either unavailable or when there is an episode available, HBO does the ol' switcheroo at the last minute. Go ahead. Try finding an episode of the classic Electric Company to DVR with your cable company. If you do find one, schedule it to record and watch...poof! Gone!

I thought it was really weird this kept happening. I emailed HBO and asked about why this was happening. I just got an basic form letter. Bleh.

It made me wonder though...is it because that Cosby was in the original series? True, he wasn't in every episode, but I could just see a conversation going on at HBO programming:

"OK, we'll put on some of this old school Electric Company. We have the old Sesame Street episodes, so why not? There. It's on the schedule."

"Uh...it says in the description that Bill Cosby was on that show."

"Uh oh...what do we do?"

"Better replace it with the new Electric Company."

"You're right. Let me reprogram it aaand...yoink! There. Whew, that was close."

Since they did the same thing to the Cosby Show from Nick at Nite, I can't help but wonder if they did the same thing with the Electric Company on HBO.

Like many fans of Cosby, I really looked up to the guy ever since I was a kid. I even had front row seats to see him once in 2004 (which I posted about in this forum).

Then...as I heard more and more about what was going on, I couldn't help but feel disappointed and betrayed. As each piece of news appeared to give more evidence of a guilty verdict, I did a Kyle Broflovski "Really?" from that 9/11-related episode.

I still have my Bill Cosby LPs, books and a few other things. I have a Library Sciences degree, so that affected my decision as to what to do with them. It's information that should be preserved and depending on what happens in the near future, some of it may be hard to find someday. So, I'll pack it away--not throw it away, but I don't know if I could ever enjoy it again like I used to. I had a few Charlie Brown "leaning on the brick wall" moments to think it all through. I had never gotten around to writing a fan letter to Bill Cosby before all of this happened. I'm glad I didn't now.

It's just...very strange to process that Bill Cosby did what he did while also being one of the people who taught me how to read, to appreciate comedy, encouraged me (through his books) to work hard in school and how to be kind to others (mostly through Fat Albert).

Finally, like the rest of us Muppet fans, I don't think any of us can see "Sesame Street 20 Years and Counting" the same way again.

 

[D'Snowth]

Now, speaking of the Electric Company, I want to bring up something the recent events may have affected. Anyone out there have Comcast for their cable company? If you do, let me tell you something: watch your HBO schedule and do a search to DVR The Electric Company. HBO will list classic 1970's episodes of The Electric Company from time to time. They even list in the descriptions "Rita Moreno, Skip Hinnant, Judy Graubart," etc. But, when it comes time for these episodes to air, these episodes are pulled from the schedule and replaced with the new Electric Company from the 2000's.

True, sometimes TV schedules change...but this has happened with ALL classic episodes of the Electric Company. They are ALL either unavailable or when there is an episode available, HBO does the ol' switcheroo at the last minute. Go ahead. Try finding an episode of the classic Electric Company to DVR with your cable company. If you do find one, schedule it to record and watch...poof! Gone!

This happens with Comcast more often than not. Like not too long ago, one of the premium digital channels was airing THE SOUL MAN, which their descriptions said was the Dan Aykroyd sitcom from the 90s, when it was actually reruns of the Cedric the Entertainer sitcom of the same name that TV Land produces.

But on that token, from what I've seen regarding TEC on HBO, I've only seen them advertising the updated version of the show, rather than the original/classic version, so I'm not entirely sure what's going on there.

 

[Drtooth]

While I don't think it's so much a case of HBO/SW pulling episodes of TEC '70's but rather some unqualified buffoon writing these descriptions without bothering to do anything more taxing than the slightest research, I'll admit this...

Then...as I heard more and more about what was going on, I couldn't help but feel disappointed and betrayed. As each piece of news appeared to give more evidence of a guilty verdict, I did a Kyle Broflovski "Really?" from that 9/11-related episode.

I still have my Bill Cosby LPs, books and a few other things. I have a Library Sciences degree, so that affected my decision as to what to do with them. It's information that should be preserved and depending on what happens in the near future, some of it may be hard to find someday. So, I'll pack it away--not throw it away, but I don't know if I could ever enjoy it again like I used to. I had a few Charlie Brown "leaning on the brick wall" moments to think it all through. I had never gotten around to writing a fan letter to Bill Cosby before all of this happened. I'm glad I didn't now.

It's just...very strange to process that Bill Cosby did what he did while also being one of the people who taught me how to read, to appreciate comedy, encouraged me (through his books) to work hard in school and how to be kind to others (mostly through Fat Albert).

Finally, like the rest of us Muppet fans, I don't think any of us can see "Sesame Street 20 Years and Counting" the same way again.

Exactly my problem. I mean, if this happened to someone terrible with a list of awful contributions (insert celebrity or political demagogue you hate here), then we'd be all like "HAW HAW! Serves you right for rubbing me the wrong way." But this guy had a huge contribution to kids that grew up 70's-90's. He was also a philanthropist. He was a very positive role model and did some great things and he used his shows as a pulpit. That's why it hurts so much. That's why I feel betrayed and why I feel like an idiot for not listening to the easily ignored allegations in 2006. Part of me just wishes we could go back to the 90's when he was, at worst, a goofy sounding grumpy old man ranting about the young people. Back when this...

Was still funny. I miss doing Bill Cosby impersonations and not feeling dirty.

Now all you can do is look at him as he did something terrible and at best find things ironic (like the Barbecue Sauce episode).

However, Fat Albert is still one of my favorite cartoons of all time, just with an asterisk. His name is plastered all over it, he's one of the main characters, he narrates it. But to deny the show completely is to throw out the work of those who actually shaped the show, including everyone's favorite cartoon writer and creator of everyone's favorite female comic book star, Paul Dini. I mean, I haven't been able to bring myself to watch one, and when I have one of the songs from the CD that came with the first 2 DVD sets, I rush to skip them. I just have the horrible feeling he did what he did when this cartoon was being produced. Then I get a little annoyed that there was supposed controversy when Richard Pryor had his kid's show due to things he did in the past. And frankly the only atrocity he should have been punished for is Superman III (God, I hate that movie).

 

[CensoredAlso]

Then...as I heard more and more about what was going on, I couldn't help but feel disappointed and betrayed.

That's why I feel betrayed

It's not about being betrayed, you have to look at it more pragmatically. Be a little robotic about it, for now. If the allegations are true, then he's pretty disturbed. This isn't normal "guy acts like jerk" stuff (no offense to guys ), this is strange behavior, like "he should been diagnosed by a professional" strange. If it's true, he ought to be punished, but I'm not going to waste my anger when clearly the guy isn't all there (at least in my layman opinion).

About the question of a double standard, it's all about image. Cosby had this conservative attitude which rubbed a lot of people in the business the wrong way, so they don't mind watching him crash and burn. Whereas with Woody Allen, first off he always seemed neurotic and weird, it wasn't that surprising, heh. Plus he married the girl and she didn't seem miserable, that made it easier for people to at least tolerate, if not support. But second, he's liberal. That does go a long way in the business (and it's the same with conservative circles).