Pre-recorded Voice Tracks

[Buck-Beaver]

OK, not to pour gasoline on a fire here, but I thought I would raise this as a new discussion topic since it came up elsewhere - Pre-recorded voice tracks for puppetry on video/film.

Now the conventional wisdom in film and TV is that you don't do this for several reasons. As far as I know this logic stems from what the Muppets esthablished once they started doing Sesame Street (most of the Muppet's stuff was lip-synched until the late `60s).

On a lot of independent shows I've worked on the production team likes the idea of doing pre-recorded tracks for a variety of reasons. Most puppeteers don't like pre-recording, although many will shut up and do it for the sake of a pay cheque.

I posted some thoughts on this conflict at http://puppetvision.blogspot.com/2005/04/pre-recorded-tracks-why-i-think-its.html and would love to hear from those with dissenting opinions, especially if they've had experiences to the contrary.

Oh and for the love of all that is holy, this is intended to be a general puppetry discussion. No one is attacking anyone. We're all friends.

 

[Handy Andy]

Okay......

Buck. I agree with you, let me make that very clear. In a perfect situation it would be advantageous to have the puppeteers perform their own voices. Yes. Totally. Completely. Absolutely. No doubt about it.

BUT..... in certain productions, it does become absolutely necessary to pre-record the audio. Some of the things you listed in the post you sent to me in the other thread are those situations: Musical numbers, productions with celebrities, unique productions that purely require it to be that way due to it's nature (Crank Yankers), productions that incorporate animation throughout, and, of course, producer stubborness.

My particular production incorporates the following..... musical segments, animation, unique audio scenarios incorporating enhanced and digitally altered voices, impersonators and comedians with no puppetry skill required to do the voices, and the desire to seek a celebrity for the lead character. I have no choice. Pre-recorded audio.

I do have plans on producing other projects, and those, without a doubt, will be puppeteer voiced. I laboured long and hard on how to handle this audio stuff, and was forced to my knees on that decision.

-James.

 

[SesameKermie]

I don't have any experience with this, but I've seen outtake clips where the puppeteers were just using their own voices and ad-libbing. Some of the jokes were situational and some were actually good enough that the script was rewritten in post production to include the joke when the actual voices were dubbed. Maybe something like that would work? I think Buck's Jedi-Jawa outtake clip is a good example of this. I believe that the muppets would kinda work that way too.

Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Handy Andy]

Yes.... that is true, too. I did consider this, having the ability to let the puppeteers enjoy some freedom on the set...... and that pre-recording would disable this.

I had decided to have sit-down read-throughs with the voice actors and puppeteers simultaneously... allowing for free dialogue and script changes and movement alterations. I may be overzealous, but I want both an open and carefree production, but when it comes time for actual shooting in a studio, I require everyone to be on the same page.

I guess I neglected to mention that there are segments of my show that will be voiced by puppeteers. Cut aways and episodic character and such.... randomly placed when able and necessary, but basically, for the main characters, it will be pre-recorded.

You know, I haven't argued my point much, but here is something to consider... You have a popular puppet character, let's say, like Kermit. Voiced and puppeteered by the same person. Then, one horrible day, for whatever reason, that person no longer is able to perform the puppet. Now, you are stuck with finding not only someone who can puppeteer, but that can accurately reproduce the original voice that people have come to recognize with that character. Would it not be easier to find an impersonator who can do this, and then find a puppeteer who can do the moves? You extend the legacy that way, I think.

Now, granted, it's not the norm... but other situations can be similar.

 

[Iokitek]

It sounds hard to me to make puppets lipsync to prerecorded audio. I would do it the other way around then. To have the actual puppeteers do the voices while filming and then have 'professional' voice actors dub the puppeteers voices.

 

[Jinx]

I think what a lot of this boils down to is a performer's feeling of "ownership" of a role. And a lot of that centers on ego. Somehow they might see performing to a pre-recorded track to be a "lesser" performance.

When I've puppeteered Little Shop (3 productions!) you only have hope of making the plant a true character by working very closely with the voice performer. You have to listen very carefully for nuance, but even there improvising won't work.

Consider too that all animated films (Disney, Pixar, etc) record the voices first. Then the animators "perform" to the audio. And don't try to tell me that this is a "limiting" way to perform! In Disney's Aladdin Jafar has a line, "Your father has charged me with keeping peace in Agrabah. The boy was a criminal." I've seen several interviews and everyone involved agrees that the line's effectiveness, particularly the second sentence, was MADE by Andreas Dejas' animation, adding immeasurable to Jonathan Freeman's vocal track. There's no viable reason for thinking a puppeteer worth his salt can't contribute in a similar fashion.

I have often mixed recorded vocals and live within the same performance, and no one has ever had a negative comment about it because 99 times out of 100 they don't even know.

Yes, we all love the freedom of perfoming live, but perhaps we could all learn something from the discipline of syncing to another voice! Maybe, just maybe, it will make you think a bit more about the physicality of the puppet and what potential there is to add nuance to a performance when you don't have control over the voice!

 

[Iokitek]

This actually reminds me of sheetmusic. Alot of people find it hard to learn to read notes. And so they look down on it. But reading notes enables you to learn so much more about music. It's just harder. Sometimes the combination of a puppeteer and a voice actor seperately can cause problems. But it can also create more opportunities.

I guess what it all comes down to is simply the effect one desires and what kind of puppets, filmstyle, etc. you are using. If you can only get good puppeteers and good voice actors seperately then you don't really have a choice. But if you are lucky enough to find the combination of both talents in one person then that could work better and save both time and money. It depends on what you are doing. My ideas for puppeteering are not regular ones. So I'll probaly have to rely on puppeteers and voice actors being seperate. I don't think I have a choice. But for instance with the Muppet style I would probably try to go for live audio. Especially when humor is concerned it makes it possible to improvise.

There are so many forms of puppeteering though. So there are no set rules on this in my opinion. I have a Dutch movie called Pompy The Robodoll. It's about a robot built out of sardine cans etc. The movie was shot without the actors speaking themselves. They just use facial expressions and body language. Both the puppets and the actors. It's very weird. But it leaves all sort of possibilities open and still works very well. The emotions are especially conveyed very well because of this. If I'm correct the movie was meant to be released in several countires dubbed in their native languages. But I can't seem to find any foreign versions of it.

I have one extra videotape of it actually wich I'm willing to sell. It's very very hard to find. Especially because lots of people are hunting for it for nostalgic reasons. So if you want it, send me a message and we'll work out the financial details. It's in Dutch though Not in English.

 

[DMETxix]

Consider too that all animated films (Disney, Pixar, etc) record the voices first. Then the animators "perform" to the audio.

The most notable exeption would be the 'rhythmo-band' technique, commonly used in dubbing Japanese anime with English voice actors, and some of them are quite brilliant at that.

As a sidenote, animators don't have to perform 'live' to an audio-track, but the puppeteers do, making it much harder to get on cue. (CUT!)

Also, when mixing live-action with animation, during the shooting of the live-action scenes it is practice to have someone say the exact lines of the animated characters off-screen, which still leaves room for ad-lib by the live-actors, just not for the animated characters (or puppets in the above posts) since that will be replaced with the actual pre-recorded soundtrack in post.
(ex: Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Cool World, etc..)

Personally I have to agree with most people here that ideally you'd want puppeteers that can do voices as well. For all the reasons mentioned (time-saving, room for ad-lib, etc..).

 

[Buck-Beaver]

I think what a lot of this boils down to is a performer's feeling of "ownership" of a role. And a lot of that centers on ego. Somehow they might see performing to a pre-recorded track to be a "lesser" performance.

I think to an extent that can be true. I've certainly seen cases where a puppeteer refuses to do something because of ego. If you're a professional you should either show up and do the job that's needed or decline it if doesn't fit with your style or values/beliefs.

When I've puppeteered Little Shop (3 productions!) you only have hope of making the plant a true character by working very closely with the voice performer. You have to listen very carefully for nuance, but even there improvising won't work.

But with Little Shop you still have a live person providing the voice (there's also no way you could do both in the show). I think it would be scary doing Little Shop with Audrey II's lines prerecorded. Not impossible of course, but not nearly as good as what you have when you have a live performer bouncing off the other actors.

If you look at the Star Wars films, they have almost all the actors who voice CG characters work on the set with the other actors so you get some sponetaneous interaction. That could be done in puppetry too; have actors read the lines off camera and work with the puppeteers to build a performance together and then loop any dialogue that has to be corrected in post. I think that's much better than just playing tracks for the puppeteers to sync to.

Consider too that all animated films (Disney, Pixar, etc) record the voices first. Then the animators "perform" to the audio. And don't try to tell me that this is a "limiting" way to perform! In Disney's Aladdin Jafar has a line, "Your father has charged me with keeping peace in Agrabah. The boy was a criminal." I've seen several interviews and everyone involved agrees that the line's effectiveness, particularly the second sentence, was MADE by Andreas Dejas' animation, adding immeasurable to Jonathan Freeman's vocal track. There's no viable reason for thinking a puppeteer worth his salt can't contribute in a similar fashion.

Well, this is true but at the same time animation is about producing a performance frame by frame over days, weeks, months whereas in puppetry you're creating the performance in realtime. I think it would extremely difficult to animate first and dub in lines later. In animation they're doing what historically produces the best results in their medium. I'd argue that in puppetry, going with pre-recorded tracks is not what historically produces the best results.

Yes, we all love the freedom of perfoming live, but perhaps we could all learn something from the discipline of syncing to another voice

Oh absolutely. In fact, I think puppeteers should start out not doing voices for a few years, just concentrating on physical manipulation. That's the process a lot of companies use - it's how I was trained - and I think it's the ideal. As a personal excercise I think it's very helpful, but once people get to a certain level I'm still not convinced that it's the best way to shoot film and TV if you have a choice.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I've always hated working with pre-recorded audio. I like to do things live. Except I use pre-recorded music.