Muppets Tonight: 25 Years Later

[Daffyfan4ever]

Okay first of all, I don't think the lack of classic characters break/make the show, look at the og Muppet Show, new characters were getting introduce all the time and with some wins as well as failures. Second, Clifford taking over the hosting role from Kermit was actually a Jim Henson idea during negotiations, Jim's next plan for a new Muppet show was for Clifford to be the host and Kermit being the producer.

Oh, so Jim thought of the premise before he died? Okay that's interesting trivia about the show, something I didn't know before.

Here's one thing you have to keep in mind, Muppets Tonight only lasted 22 episodes, less than the first season of the original Muppet Show (with one being a clip show). And while season 1 of TMS is fun and enjoyable, it's nowhere near as good as seasons 2-5. With time, MT really could have become very good and they were starting to show signs of improvement towards the end. The problem is that Muppets on primetime TV just never works. TMS stayed alive thanks to first-run syndication but it probably wouldn't have made it past the first season if it had been picked up by ABC or another major network.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Since TMS was on Disney+, I've been watching it with my girlfriend when I see her and it is hard to get used to Miss Piggy alternating between her current voice and Gladys the Cow and Janice without the Valley Girl accent and in general the majority of characters looking/sounding different than we know today. I'm looking forward to when we get to season 2 when these characters start to really take off in terms of voice and personality. MT really never had those opportunities. That is an interesting thought about how MT may have worked better if it were syndicated like TMS. That might be an experiment for Disney to try, having the Muppets back on in syndication. You never know what works and what doesn't until you try.

 

[minor muppetz]

Okay first of all, I don't think the lack of classic characters break/make the show, look at the og Muppet Show, new characters were getting introduce all the time and with some wins as well as failures.

Maybe. And I’ve seen at least one interview with one of the Henson people saying that TMS was introducing new characters all the time (well, not so much in the last two seasons). But there is a big difference.

Until The Muppet Show premiered, there wasn’t really a core group of Muppets. Sesame Street had the biggest core group of Muppet characters seen regularly to a national audience, but that was a different show. Outside of Sesame Street, there weren’t many Muppets people associated as THE Muppets. Rowlf hadn’t been used as often as he was back in the Jimmy Dean Show days, the public might have associated Kermit as one of the main characters, but most of the others were primarily in a special or two, maybe some guest appearances (that I don’t think were heavily rerun).

By the time of The Jim Henson Hour and Muppets Tonight, it had become clear who the core group of Muppets were, the ones being used heavily in merchandise and being seen in the various movies and specials.

Who knows if the casual fans were turned off by the lack of major characters, or at least more focus on new than old. I remember watching the first episode and being worried when so many of the classic characters left the room in the first scene (which made me wonder if they would be absent), I would be happy when various classic characters showed up on the show. I wasn’t exactly wishing for new characters, though I did like the new ones.

Maybe casual fans were turned off by the lack of many classic characters, though I’m guessing they were more disappointed with the limited appearances by Miss Piggy (though I didn’t think she was that limited untilI saw it pointed out online) and Fozzie, maybe The Swedish chef or The Electric Mayhem, than they lack of Scooter or Rowlf.

Of course, The Muppets (and I think Muppets Now) heavily focused on its core classic characters with very few original characters (even as one-shots), and those were short-lived (I’m assuming Muppets Now hasn’t been renewed). Maybe it was the formats of the various shows, maybe the problem really is that the shows are not an honorary sixth season of The Muppet Show (as much as the hardcore fan base says that would not be so good), maybe the casual fans really only like the Muppets on an occasional basis.

 

[Muppet Master]

Of course, The Muppets (and I think Muppets Now) heavily focused on its core classic characters with very few original characters (even as one-shots), and those were short-lived

Speaking of the 2015 Muppet series, I feel like that show struck the perfect balance of having newer Muppets Tonight muppets like Bobo, Big Mean Carl, and Pepe (plus the 90s pairing of Gonzo and Rizzo) alongside classic characters and even semi-forgotten ones like Uncle Deadly.

 

[minor muppetz]

I have also started to wonder if, ignoring Frank Oz's limited availability, it would have been better if Muppets Tonight mainly focused on a fairly small core group of Muppets, if most of it was Kermit, Miss Piggy, Fozzie, Gonzo, Rizzo, Bunsen and Beaker, Statler and Waldorf as much as they ended up being used, maybe Clifford and Bean Bunny, maybe a bit of Animal, Floyd, Robin, and The Swedish Chef, maybe about three or four new characters at first (how about Johnny Fiama, Sal, Seymour, and Pepe?), and then everyone else on occasion as needed? Perhaps you could also ask this for The Jim Henson Hour (but add in Scooter and Rowlf and maybe the whole Electric Mayhem) or a new Muppet series in the near future.

 

[MuppetSpot]

I heard that one of MT’s main goal was to try to introduce new characters into the Muppet franchise and be like the Muppet Show.

 

[minor muppetz]

I heard that one of MT’s main goal was to try to introduce new characters into the Muppet franchise and be like the Muppet Show.

Yeah. It is hard to really develop new characters when the Muppets don’t have a regular series (or a new movie every few years). The Jim Henson Company probably could do new Muppet shows and focus more on new characters, while Disney would focus on a brand and focus more on those known as Muppets (only a handful of new characters have been introduced on the shows made by Disney).

It would be great to determine how much use we’ve had if the characters between the end of TMS in 1981 and the start of JHH in 1989, and the same between that shows end and the start of MT in 1996. I want to say there’s considerably less use of the Muppets between 1998 and 2015, even with all the projects that came out in between. But that might be a post for another thread.

 

[Chilly Down]

Wow, a lot of great replies! Thanks, everyone. (Sorry I didn't jump in earlier. I always forget that email notifications for this forum go to an old email address, so I don't see them.)

Muppet Master: I agree that the show was far from perfect, but there were a lot of wonderful moments and storylines, as well as a lot of potential for the future if it had been given a chance. You're right that we'd have a much different view of TMS if it had only lasted 22 episodes!

I tend to be pretty hard on the 2015 series, but I concur that the balance of characters was absolutely spot-on.

Daffyfan4ever: Yeah, the lack of classic characters did make the show a bit of an uphill battle. I think at that point, the mainstream audience wanted to see that the classic characters would survive and thrive. But with Jim and Richard gone, Frank semi-retired from puppeteering, Jerry unable to perform in every episode due to his health (I believe), and the Henson Company being reluctant at the time to recast more than necessary, we were going to be stuck with a heavy emphasis on characters who hadn't hit their stride yet and who the audience hadn't yet embraced.

Of course, JHH also introduced a slew of new characters, but that show lasted even less long than MT, and none of those characters are part of the current troupe. At least we still have Pepe from MT.

Granted, one can't rest on one's laurels forever, and it's good to develop new characters. But if the classic characters had been front and center at the beginning, and the new characters had been introduced more gradually and organically, maybe the series would have more of a shot. (But I don't fault the Henson Company for doing the best they could with the limited options they had at the time.)

Coolguy13: Thanks for sharing Anthony's article! I hadn't seen that before. While Muppets Now didn't turn out to be the success we hoped for, I think he's absolutely right that the Muppets thrive in new mediums - exemplified by the huge success of the classic TMS episodes arriving on Disney+. (Also, how have I never heard of Our Place before now? That's amazing!)

Okay, I think I hit the major points for now. Thanks again to everyone, and please feel free to write more if you have more thoughts or comments!

 

[cahuenga]

I wonder why they didnt loop voices with Frank´s characters ala MFS, and the same with Jerry, I think They would have much more screen time that way... I wold love to see a MT continuation..

 

[MuppetSpot]

Jerry was onset a majority of the time, that one is more of the writers for not using him to his full potential. I think I know why they didn’t choose to showcase Frank’s characters and have him dub over, it would’ve robbed the characters themselves from being fully themselves.

Doubling is important in the world of the Muppets but, it shouldn’t be done to a full degree due the performance suffering

 

[Muppet Master]

I wonder why they didnt loop voices with Frank´s characters ala MFS, and the same with Jerry, I think They would have much more screen time that way... I wold love to see a MT continuation..

They probably just made the decision to focus more on newer characters, Frank wasn't really around for The Jim Henson Hour either. I definitely would have preferred to see more Frank characters but at least we did have a handful of Fozzie, Piggy, and Sam appearances. As for Jerry, it feels like he was being phased out during the late 90s. Not sure if it was because of health issues or because the writers didn't use him much but he only really performed background characters in Muppets Tonight and Muppets From Space.