Is there a pattern for a Kermit puppet?

[practicecactus]

Aw what the heck, I too wanna derail the thread for a bit.

The secrecy is something I also find annoying, at times. I try to help anyone that asks me for my meagre skills and advice, I'm always open and happy to share how I make mine. There does seem to be this "you haven't earned the right to know my methods" from some. Like some rookie can't know all the ins and out, they have to put in the hours, succeed and fail before they can then step up. Like they think those not willing to put in the frustration and thinking first, aren't allowed to peek behind the wizard's curtain, I dunno. There just seems to be this "boys club" mentality you're not supposed to show in detail how you make them. Might only a problem with the more old fashioed types and it's changing with the new generatiion of puppet makers. I agree with HauntedPuppet about sharing ideas so these things can be built on and perpetually build on knowledge.
Having said that though, of course there is a wealth of knowledge, tips and tricks on the boards already and for the most part people seem open about the basics. However there are some things you just couldn't possibly explain, and really do have to be learnt through trial and error. Making things from scratch will inevitably run into problem solving here or there.

Sometimes when a newbie asks the questions that have been posted here before, the regulars just send them to the search function, which annoys me a little. Not so much lately but used to happen so often that the amount of times I've gone looking for a particular thread about something and see that said in all of them, frustrates me.
There's also the problem of inexperienced people maybe not being sure themselves what they're asking or how to explain the problem. Something like a mouthplate is subjective and depends wholely on the design of the puppet.

Without getting bogged down in yet another muppet replica "debate", I want to reiterate, there is nothing illegal with making one for yourself, just as there is nothing illegal with making a replica copy of anything in the world, for yourself.
/end rant

 

[HauntedPuppet]

Much better said than I could have, here here

People make prints or paint paintings the same as the artists.
People take designs from Victorias secret and similar copies end up in Kmart
People make their own miniatures of stuff
Pub Bands cover other famous bands songs
Tattoo artists replicate famous art on skin AND make money from it.
etc etc etc . . . . .

Why not have a pattern to make a muppet? For anyone bothered to actually look at the copyright laws it actually breaks no laws just as none of the other examples do either.

In fact is this not another form of "puppet secrecy" ?

"oh no, we couldnt show you that, that would be breaking the law"
Seems more like an excuse rather than a fact.

Otherwise Ikea could not rip of famous furniture
etc etc etc etc

 

[Super Scooter]

Hey, no condensation (condestination?) meant. Just seemed you used da "whoms" alot, good suh. And, I don't mean to be rude, but it seems you may have mis-quoted me, Haunted Puppets. I didn't write the word "who" in bold. Now, that would have been compensating.

My point was that some of the people on here who might have access to a Kermit pattern have also worked with the Muppets, and so they would get in trouble for sharing those designs.

Correcting condescension completely coagulates competent companions.

 

[charlie bird]

I wish I could help ,but I don't know the pattern,sorry.I would just get some cheap fabric and a picture of kermit ,and use the glorified sock puppet pattern ,or stuffed animal pattern and sew up some exspeiramental heads.Soon you can reconize more of how you should make it by modifying the pattern.For example make the snout on the sock puppet pattern pointier.You could also use tape and papper.

With all this said It is funner ,to me, to make someting different,plus knowone can say ''that's not how he looks''.Still It would be cool to make your'e own kermit puppet.I hope this helps.
ps:good luck to you!

 

[spcglider]

When someone comes along and says "Tell me how to make a puppet." its like saying "Tell me how to make a horse buggy."

There is no one way to make a horse buggy. Just as there is no one way to make a puppet.

I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the information shared. If you ask the right questions, you'll get the right answers. If you ask horribly generalized questions, you'll get answers like "figure it out yourself".

How do you ask the right questions? Do a little digging yourself first. Read the old posts. Educated questions get better answers. But the onus is on the person doing the asking. Never expect any forum to be a one-stop-shop for instruction. On anything.

I have made lots of puppets... every one of them is made differently. I was recently looking for a fashion by which to make a "live hand" or "glove hand" puppet like Ernie or Fozzie Bear. Over three forums, I got probably 8 to 10 perfectly reasonable responses. All of which were different. I chose the one that best suited my application.

Frankly, there are MORE ways to make a puppet than there are to make a horse buggy. But both can require specific tools, materials, talent and skill set. And that is a very large library of knowledge (in either case). And skills and talent aren't translatable via forum post.

If someone wanted to simply "make a puppet" there are hundreds of books and patterns available out there. I've recommended the Project Puppet website to dozens of people (both here and on other sites). If one wants to delve into the finer points of puppet building, its going to take more than a couple questions on a forum. Thats just reality.

Every step of puppet building (and I'm assuming here that we're talking about moving-mouth, hand and rod or hand in glove style puppets like Muppets) is subject to near limitless variation. One cannot expect a complete encyclopedia of puppet building from anybody.

You are correct in that the posts speak for themselves. And in innumerable posts, people come in and ask how to build a puppet with the mistaken idea that its like making a cake and all you need is a Duncan Hines box mix. Or that there's some kind of secret textbook on how exactly to do it that they can't find in a bookstore. Or that there's an easy answer.

There just isn't.

And the greater majority of people who pop in to the forum and ask that question are looking for the easy answer. When they don't get it, they go away disappointed and don't bother digging deeper. Which is precisely what they must to do to get the answers they need. Puppet builders (aside from very rare cases) are not mind readers.

When it comes to "tell me how to make a replica of Kermit." you will invariably get the answer "figure it out yourself". Mainly because those of us who respect the intellectual property aren't in the business of helping others replicate Muppets and those who possess accurate patterns either a) paid for their own Photo Puppet Kermit and tore it apart to get a pattern or b) are more interested in selling you an unlicensed finished version.

In my case, I have NEVER withheld construction advice. I am willing to share freely... in fact I usually offer more information than a beginning puppet builder will absorb and use. The limitation in this case is my frequency at this forum.

So you have questions? Ask away.

-Gordon

 

[HauntedPuppet]

When someone comes along and says "Tell me how to make a puppet." its like saying "Tell me how to make a horse buggy."

There is no one way to make a horse buggy. Just as there is no one way to make a puppet.

If one were to actually read my posts they would realize that I mentioned the people who were asking specific questions and not just "how do I make a puppet"

I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the information shared. If you ask the right questions, you'll get the right answers. If you ask horribly generalized questions, you'll get answers like "figure it out yourself".

Wrong. There are many instances of people asking specific questions and getting either very limited or NO response at all. So if you ask the right questions you mostly get nothing.

How do you ask the right questions? Do a little digging yourself first. Read the old posts. Educated questions get better answers. But the onus is on the person doing the asking. Never expect any forum to be a one-stop-shop for instruction. On anything.

Quite right. People should research a little then if they still feel the need to ask a question they should pose it. People often treat forums as a 1 stop shop and these posts are easily identified but it STILL isnt what im talking about.

I have made lots of puppets... every one of them is made differently. I was recently looking for a fashion by which to make a "live hand" or "glove hand" puppet like Ernie or Fozzie Bear. Over three forums, I got probably 8 to 10 perfectly reasonable responses. All of which were different. I chose the one that best suited my application.

I was not talking about 3 forums, I was talking about this one. I have a lot of fun and share a lot of information on other forums and it has even been stated by another person here that the responses from other forums are rather different.

Frankly, there are MORE ways to make a puppet than there are to make a horse buggy. But both can require specific tools, materials, talent and skill set. And that is a very large library of knowledge (in either case). And skills and talent aren't translatable via forum post.

Skills are transferred by knowledge. The informed transfer their information to the uninformed and depending on the skill of the uninformed person depends on the amount of success they have with their venture. In this sense skills ARE transferable by forum posts. I have learned many things using forums and not just for pupptry. I build a Nissan 300ZX from a basket case donor car with almost no mechanical knowledge at all, Just the donor car, a set of cheap tools and a laptop accessing a forum.

If someone wanted to simply "make a puppet" there are hundreds of books and patterns available out there. I've recommended the Project Puppet website to dozens of people (both here and on other sites). If one wants to delve into the finer points of puppet building, its going to take more than a couple questions on a forum. Thats just reality.

Once again, I am not talking about a generalized question. If someone said "how do I make a puppet" I would just answer with a link to somewhere like project puppet or tell them to buy a book. However, if someone were to ask a specific question I would be inclined to just answer that question if it were within my ability do to so.

Every step of puppet building (and I'm assuming here that we're talking about moving-mouth, hand and rod or hand in glove style puppets like Muppets) is subject to near limitless variation. One cannot expect a complete encyclopedia of puppet building from anybody.

Same things I have said before apply here.

You are correct in that the posts speak for themselves. And in innumerable posts, people come in and ask how to build a puppet with the mistaken idea that its like making a cake and all you need is a Duncan Hines box mix. Or that there's some kind of secret textbook on how exactly to do it that they can't find in a bookstore. Or that there's an easy answer.

There just isn't.

And the greater majority of people who pop in to the forum and ask that question are looking for the easy answer. When they don't get it, they go away disappointed and don't bother digging deeper. Which is precisely what they must to do to get the answers they need. Puppet builders (aside from very rare cases) are not mind readers.

Thats right. Instead of the informed asking the uninformed what they are trying to do or just pointing them to a simple puppet pattern or puppet book, they do not respond at all. This leaves (as you have said) the person disappointed in the forum and not really wanting to build a puppet at all. And rightly so. This would surely hurt the reputation of any forum.

When it comes to "tell me how to make a replica of Kermit." you will invariably get the answer "figure it out yourself". Mainly because those of us who respect the intellectual property aren't in the business of helping others replicate Muppets and those who possess accurate patterns either a) paid for their own Photo Puppet Kermit and tore it apart to get a pattern or b) are more interested in selling you an unlicensed finished version.

My opinion on making a replica is well known so im not going to bother pursuing it further here other than saying that making a replica for ones own personal use hurts no one at all.

In my case, I have NEVER withheld construction advice. I am willing to share freely... in fact I usually offer more information than a beginning puppet builder will absorb and use. The limitation in this case is my frequency at this forum.

Thats great to hear, It is just unfortunate that you seem to be a minority in this field.

Peace

 

[spcglider]

Wrong. There are many instances of people asking specific questions and getting either very limited or NO response at all. So if you ask the right questions you mostly get nothing.

We will then disagree. Buck Beaver has already pointed out that if one simply goes back over the old posts, there is a staggering wealth of information here.

You're also posting into a forum that is not specifically dedicated to puppet building. So expecting detailed technical answers is neither reliable nor realistic. There's no "Muppet Central puppet building experts" on duty waiting to answer questions.

This is a social site. If nobody takes the time to answer specific questions, that's the breaks. There's no paid staff to service those needs. But wholesale condemnation of the folks that frequent here for "withholding information" is completely off the mark.

I was not talking about 3 forums, I was talking about this one. I have a lot of fun and share a lot of information on other forums and it has even been stated by another person here that the responses from other forums are rather different.

You weren't talking about 3 forums. I was. And my counterpoint to your original statement was that one shouldn't expect all the answers from one forum. That one being this one. I got a couple of good answers from this forum when I asked my live-hand question. But I got other answers at other forums as well. As it turns out, the most useful information didn't come from here, but that didn't mitigate the fact that I got suggestions and answers.

Skills are transferred by knowledge. The informed transfer their information to the uninformed and depending on the skill of the uninformed person depends on the amount of success they have with their venture. In this sense skills ARE transferable by forum posts. I have learned many things using forums and not just for pupptry. I build a Nissan 300ZX from a basket case donor car with almost no mechanical knowledge at all, Just the donor car, a set of cheap tools and a laptop accessing a forum.

You're mis-defining technique as skill. Mutually exclusive terms. Skill is ONLY achievable through experience. I cannot, no matter how hard I try or how completely I describe it, TELL you how to be skilled at any task. Just as I cannot tell you how to be talented.

Once again, I am not talking about a generalized question. If someone said "how do I make a puppet" I would just answer with a link to somewhere like project puppet or tell them to buy a book. However, if someone were to ask a specific question I would be inclined to just answer that question if it were within my ability do to so.

Again, this is a social site. About Muppets. Nowhere is it suggested that this is "the" place to get information about building puppets. Many of the people here DON'T build puppets. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Thats right. Instead of the informed asking the uninformed what they are trying to do or just pointing them to a simple puppet pattern or puppet book, they do not respond at all. This leaves (as you have said) the person disappointed in the forum and not really wanting to build a puppet at all. And rightly so. This would surely hurt the reputation of any forum.

If this were the Muppet Central Puppet Building Forum, I would agree with you. But its not. All the information here about building puppets is shared as a part of the socialization taking place. Nobody owes anybody anything here other than civility. If a conversation doesn't move the way you want it to, that's really too bad. But just because this place is sometimes attended by people who know puppet building techniques doesn't give anybody the right to expect an impromptu tutorial on demand.
This isn't the place (specifically).

My opinion on making a replica is well known so im not going to bother pursuing it further here other than saying that making a replica for ones own personal use hurts no one at all.

I agree. But the Intellectual Property Rights Laws of The United States do not.

Thats great to hear, It is just unfortunate that you seem to be a minority in this field.

Peace

In deference to all of the other skilled, talented, and often extremely helpful puppet builders here, I disagree.

But that doesn't change the fact that I am open to answer, to the best of my abilities, any puppet building question posed to me.

Simply PM me.

All best

-Gordon

 

[HauntedPuppet]

You're mis-defining technique as skill. Mutually exclusive terms. Skill is ONLY achievable through experience. I cannot, no matter how hard I try or how completely I describe it, TELL you how to be skilled at any task. Just as I cannot tell you how to be talented.

This is the only part of the statement I am going to address because we obviously disagree about what this section of the forum is for.

I am not mis-defining technique as skill. If one were to look over my statement it is self explanatory. I said that the persons own skill will define how successful they are in their venture. Therefor no mis-definition took place.

Peace

 

[practicecactus]

I'm one of the more senior members who has often encouraged people to use the search function, because honestly virtually everything you could need to know about foam puppet construction has been discussed over the years and is posted..
..But there is a lot of great info here...including how to make a Kermit. You just have to be willing to do a little work to find it!

If I know there's something in the boards that's searchable, I try to search it for them now. It's not hard and I have more of an idea of what to search for, so why not?
There's also a lot of dead links to people's personal blogs and photos in those search results.
And like I said earlier in the thread, it's annoying searching for a topic and find most of the thread results have "use the search function" in them and I'm like =/

 

[spcglider]

Building a puppet can be insidiously simple or vexingly complex. The variations for every mechanism, type, style, material, fit, adhesive, stitch and construction technique are so varied as to be impossible to completely catalog. Puppeteers have been concocting different answers to the same problems for centuries. Re-inventing the wheel with imagination and whatever they have on-hand. It all depends on the individual. There are no "right" answers... only previously discovered ones. And even those answers will change in relation to the application you have in mind. Yeah... its frustrating. But no moreso to you than to the thousands of others who came before you that did the figuring out on their own.

If you have access to THIS forum, you have access to the rest of the puppeting world via the internet. And there are many more, in-depth, mission-specific forums, sites and instructional pages/videos out there better suited to give you more information than you're prepared to receive than you'll cajole out of the casual regulars here. Websites that brazenly advertise their ability to help you answer those questions.

I'm not saying "Don't ask here." I'm saying, "Here doesn't promise you answers."