I think it time for me to really drop this facade and say maybe disney is best...

[Kye]

Re: Y'all know how I feel part two

Originally posted by JamieDenny
Yes i'm anti-disney, not because they're evil but because I just don't think the Muppets would fit in with their general 'cutsieness'???
However If we take Warner Bros, who have some of the oddest charcters I know in the form of the Looney Tunes then the Muppets would fit in.
Disney behaved reprehensibly when Jim died and deep down they know they did, I don't care if it was lawyers the buck stops rightly at the CEO Mr Eisner, lawyers may well have the run of the company but only on his say so.
When Jim died he took a bit of me with him, Disneys ensuing behaviour made me want to vomit.
Jamie

Where are you getting your information?? When Jim died we at disney morned as long and hard as everyone. I was actually involved in a special employee service that we held in honor of him..Frank Oz came to see it. Brian pulled out of the merger I think. I will find out. All I know is that the Disney company is doing a great job with Bear in the Big Blue House! how can you not see it!! I dont mean to get testy, but i think that people who run around saying " i hate Disney" are just conforming to an uneducated view of fear. Disney is not all Micheal Eisner...If it was, the disney family would have pulled the name a long time ago..
Walt Disney is Dead. Jim Henson is Dead. Both were creative geniuses who appreciated each others work. Both have left a legacy for others to build upon. Lets not demean either of them by prodding thier visions with Hate.

 

[Luke]

Originally posted by Gobo_Tron2
How does a man with as much love for life as Jim had, go around sick for a whole month without visiting a doctor? To me that sounds like depression.

No, to put it quite simply it was part of his religion. Earlier in his life he was a Christian Scientist and a very active one at that in the community - i even heard that he sometimes encouraged other Christian Scientists to use puppetry to get the religion 'over' to people which actually begs the question whether there are certain elements of Christian Science being taught at times in 'Fraggle Rock' although that may well be a coincidence. Anyway part of the religion is that they don't believe in any kind of un-natural form of medicine. Jim left the public side of the church mid-way through his life but still followed the teachings and beliefs privately so thats the most likely reason why he didn't seek help until he really had no other choice. There are people who were very close to Jim who actually believe he had some knowledge he was dying at least six months prior to his death, but whether this was a spiritual thing, he had knowledge of some other illness, or it was false i don't know. I do know there was a big tussle with the doctors over which cause of death went on his death certificate. Originally the doctors wanted to be less specific and it would have meant a lot of press speculation that Jim could have died from AIDS amongst other things. Lukcily it was changed to what we know now right at the last minute before it was released to the press.

I doubt depression had anything to do with it, he was apparently quite happy with the Disney deal, and also in good spirits just before his death travelling around with his daughter.

 

[electricmayhem]

Originally posted by Kye
Look at what disney did for winnie the pooh... it was dead in the water before disney bought it and now tigger is everywhere! maybe i am just being selfish...maybe i just want to go to walmart and find kermit on the shelves again...i want my one year old to grow up loving the muppets like I did. Disney would make sure that it happened.

I see everyone's point on each side of this issue and I can't really take a stand myself because I don't know enough of the information. I would love to see more muppet things but I must say I'm not very impressed with Tigger being everywhere. I used to like Winnie the pooh a lot (not as much as the classic aa milne though) but it soon became almost sickening at how much merchandise there was. I totally agree that the muppets need someone to get them back on the map but not if its going to exploit them and make them a run-of-the mill bunch of characters slapped on every back pack and frilly pillow ever made. I should probably read up more on this issue before I make comments so I'm sorry if I've said anything ignorant but it's just the way I feel. I've just seen a lot of characters ruined because of an overload of their images. I guess I just don't want the muppets to be the next fad that every kid buys because it's so availabe until some other character comes around.

 

[BlueFrackle]

Originally posted by Gobo_Tron2

How does a man with as much love for life as Jim had, go around sick for a whole month without visiting a doctor? To me that sounds like depression. My question is, why would he be so depressed? Because he realized that everything he'd worked for his whole life was about to be snatched right out of his hands?

Originally posted by Luke

There are people who were very close to Jim who actually believe he had some knowledge he was dying at least six months prior to his death, but whether this was a spiritual thing, he had knowledge of some other illness, or it was false i don't know. I do know there was a big tussle with the doctors over which cause of death went on his death certificate. Originally the doctors wanted to be less specific and it would have meant a lot of press speculation that Jim could have died from AIDS amongst other things. Lukcily it was changed to what we know now right at the last minute before it was released to the press.

I feel very strongly about this issue.

And i want to say that neither of you have that much of a clue about what happened to Jim, Neither do i.

No one knows, Unless someone like Frank or Jane told them.
And i know that hasnt happened to anyone on this forum, With the exeption of Muppeteers who were CLOSE to Jim.

So i dont think anyone should go around saying anything about it, Because it is all speculation.

No one knows, and probably will ever know.

So lets put it down the what we have been told.

 

[Super Scooter]

For me, this whole sale has been upsetting. I don't think anyoen will do with the Muppets what should be done. Just gonna have to wait.

 

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by electricmayhem
I see everyone's point on each side of this issue and I can't really take a stand myself because I don't know enough of the information. I would love to see more muppet things but I must say I'm not very impressed with Tigger being everywhere. I used to like Winnie the pooh a lot (not as much as the classic aa milne though) but it soon became almost sickening at how much merchandise there was.

I could NOT agree more. I used to LOOOOVE Pooh and the gang... but since they have made him everything... get that Orange yellow bear out of here (no not Fozzie )

Anyway, I wouldn't mind a lot of muppet stuff, only if they use some moderation (Stuffed animals, more cd's, PVC's) But right now, the Palisades line is plenty.

 

[beaker]

Originally posted by Super Scooter
For me, this whole sale has been upsetting. I don't think anyoen will do with the Muppets what should be done. Just gonna have to wait.

Yeah, I think were all on edge...the future, our glorious foam and fleece heritage is at stake!

Originally posted by Warrick
So i dont think anyone should go around saying anything about it, Because it is all speculation.

No one knows, and probably will ever know.

So lets put it down the what we have been told.

Im still ****** about that one blasphemy and lies thread about JH from last month, but whatever.
Just boilds my blood to hear speculation, inuendo, and other crap about JH. I think that Brilstein is getting senile in his old age.

Originally posted by Kye
All I know is that the Disney company is doing a great job with Bear in the Big Blue House! how can you not see it!!

Are you kidding!??!?! They removed any trace of Bear stuff from all the Disney stores around here, and the show has been subsequently cancelled. Which sucks, as Bear is one of my favorite Muppet shows ever. Real nice Disney. Naw, but yeah Disney is fun to poke fun at here...you'll get used to it. We all for the most part a big Disney fans, its just fun to make fun of em, heh.

Btw, I enjoy parts of modern pooh a lot. I liked the late 80's cartoons eries, and enjoy the newer animated movies. But just seeing it everywhere, like what they did with Elmo, is a bit tacky. Anyways, I could write a book fo what I DO LOVE about Disney, but its more fun to bag on em here, heh.

 

[Luke]

Originally posted by Warrick
And i want to say that neither of you have that much of a clue about what happened to Jim, Neither do i.

Warrick, you have a right to say what you like but some of the facts behind it all, at least from the stuff that i said, are probably a little more solid than you think and not so much speculation at all. When i said that Jim encouraged people to use puppetry to teach the religion and that he was an active christian scientist - that came from the guy he actually taught to do it who has written stuff himself. When i said about there being people close to Jim who believed he knew he was going to die six months prior - that came directly from the biography of Brillstein, his manager and someone just as close to him as the Muppeteers for over 30 years, and also directly from someone else who was at the meetings Brillstein talks about in his books. When i said about some of the messages Christian Science tries to get over also being in Fraggle Rock (although it could be a coincidence) i was talking as someone who's researched the religion and seen the shows to work out a similarity. When i said about Jim being an active part of the Christian Science church and then withdrawing away from it but still following the traditions privately, although i don't remember the source name it was definitely someone close to Henson. The thing about the doctors altering the death certificate at the last minute to exclude something which was sometimes associated with AIDS (not that there was ever any suggestion he had that) is very well known about by journalists because they were in contact with the doctor at the time and waiting for his final decision - it's a good thing it was changed, because it clarified the truth and stopped speculation.

So anyway, yes Jim and his family have for the most part not talked about this, but it HAS come from people who had one-2-one relationships with Jim or the other people involved and i've actually researched it a little myself. Just wanted you to know that i wasn't just speaking off the top of my head speculating about a dead person - they are the direct sources i used. I realise a lot of people don't want to talk about these controversial issues and would prefer to stick to the puppet stuff but Jim Henson is a historical figure and a very interesting person which some people close to him HAVE talked about. On a Henson forum i think this warrants discussion.

 

[beaker]

Originally posted by Luke
On a Henson forum i think this warrants discussion.

Um, there's a reason in 4 years you havent seen any discussion of it, because noone cares about that stuff. His legacy speaks for itself...I'll take the ping pong mother's coat sugar coating any day over inuendo and journalistic digging^_^

 

[JamieDenny]

Kye

Never at one time did I say that I hated anyone, my only statement was that I don't wish to see Disney owning the Muppets. I'm sorry if that winds you up but in your country and mine we have a right to free speech.
I also never said that people at Disney didn't mourn Jim's loss and from what I understand there was a card circulating with a picture of Mickey sitting on a log consoling a tearful Kermit as the sun went down, never having seen the image I'm not sure if I got it exactly accurate, but just describing it brings all sorts of emotions in me.
I would never slate the Imagineers,I love most of the stuff they do, as an example I donn't know if the USA Poster Campaign for Lilo and Stich was the same but I'll tell you what it was in the UK.
It have several of the Disney regulars looking at Stich and recoiling in horror with the tag line "There's One In Every Family"
Then there was the trailer in which Stich is on top of a Chandelier whilst Belle and the beast are dancing. Stich causes the ceiling to crack and sends the Chandelier to crash down ruining the moment. Belle's line is a genius "oh get your own movie"
Oh and the poster that is off at the framers so i can hang it in my room. So no probs with Imagineers or Cast and crew at the parks who have made my stay at DisneyWorld perfect.
My problem is with the Lawyers, yes every business needs lawyers but when a person dies it would be nice if they show the same tact as the Imagineers and other staff would.
I don't hate anyone, some people i have a hard time trying to comprehend that's all
Jamie