Edgiest puppet show: Wonder Showzen

[SomeGuy75]

I think the show is made for people on acid.

 

[ravagefrackle]

the show is and was terrible,
i interviwed to build the puppets, it was typical, do it on the cheap, so they hired someone else, i
the writers(if you can call it writing) decided they would be fine as puppeteers, and i think the results show,

it was far from originla in any case, the Sesame Street/Mister Rogers type parody has been done to death, and they really didnt bring anything new to the concept

 

[Luke]

I saw the test pilot, i like the idea of doing a Sesame Parody for adults, its a very creative and edgy idea - although i'm a little on the fence over whether it should be done since it involved using kids quite heavily and i'm not really pro kids being used in media to make adults laugh. I found it quite puppet lite - i don't think how professional the puppets looked or how they were puppeteered really made a difference seeing as how they seem to intentially be wanting it to look cheap and crappy. It went a little too far on the sick humour for me, and they could have written cleverer ideas than some of the things they did.

A lot of these type of shows that try to be alternative and edgy seem to be coming out (probably as part of the media embracing the Youtube phenomena). We have Fonejacker in the UK - a guy who makes prank phone calls and u see animated clips on screen of random stuff (famous peoples mouths moving etc) on screen to illustrate the calls. I can't stand it but its a big hit.

I've never seen Crank Yankers, Greg, Puppets Who Kill, and i hated Feebles. So while i like slightly edgy puppet humour i'm not a real big fan of the really adult stuff. Tinseltown has probably impressed me most lately, and the sketch Gordon did on here for TVTV with the alien going to the fast food counter. I think an edgy puppet sketch show for adults could catch on but it just needs to be funny, not too adult.

 

[spcglider]

Talkin about me behind my back are ya?

That's okay. I kinda like it! *thought* Hey...you wouldn't be saying that just cuz I'm a member here, would ya? Even if you are, keep it up. It does an ego good!

I find that everybody has a threshold of what humor appeals to them. And not all shows make it for everybody. I happen to be a fan of the work they do on Family Guy, but even they go a bit too far for me at times. But in the arena of art as performance, that's the very crux of what an artist tries to do: engage and challenge their audience.

Wonderschowzen is okay for a quick bite, but I wouldn't make a whole meal of it. The production quality is too crude to be enjoyed over a stretch and the puppetry can be horrific... but I can tell that they are specifically trying to be bad because they think it's funny. Unless, of course, they are completely ego-driven and actually think their puppetry stands up to other shows, which means they are monumentally ignorant. And I can't see how one could actually get a show on the air and be that stupid. I'm sure it happens, but still! What really makes me laugh about Wonderschowzen is that they're proving themselves to be bad filmmakers and they think that's a good thing.

Crank Yankers didn't do it for me because they were selling juvenile humor as adult fare. Prank phone calls just aren't funny to most adults. To pre-teens and teens and college age students, maybe. And how long did The Jerky Boys last? Not long. The concept just doesn't have legs. Its kind-of like listening to the bald-faced drug humor of Cheech and Chong today. It was humorous to my 12 year old brain back in 1979 even though I didn't understand most of what they were talking about, but now its not so much. I can't go back to being that ignorant about drugs to find it funny anymore.

Greg the Bunny was a beautiful thing to me. On all accounts. Except that the network started screwing with their ability to tell stories they way they wanted to. By the end of the season, it was obvious that they'd been messed with to the point of insanity. Evidently FOX execs kept insisting that they tell stories about the humans in the show because they got some " market research" that indicated people wanted to see more of Eugene Levy and Seth Green. Ask me sometime what I think of "market research" and "focus groups". But be prepared for the most azure of language. the show was called "Greg the BUNNY" not "Seth Green the geek comedy actor". Sheesh.

Never seen Puppets Who Kill. Available on line? I'd watch it if I had the opportunity. At least once. Gotta know what folks are talking about.

The Bronx Bunny is confusing to me. it looks like they took a couple of comedians and tried to make puppeteers out of them. And man... do they ever have troubles with lip synch. It looks like the puppets are too heavy for the performers and they get rag-armed almost immediately. I have no idea who the puppeteers are, but they are being poorly served in their careers by this property. Crude humor and no scripts... sounds like a recipe for bad tv to me.

And The Feebles... hmmm. In short, I would have been disgusted by the Feebles no matter how it was presented. Puppets, humans, animation, whatever. That having been said, I laughed a lot at it. Mainly because it was "new" and the whole disgusting puppet riff hadn't been as completely explored before. I look back at it and realize that it was geared specifically to take advantage of that shock value. And I feel a little used by it as a viewer. Kinda like I feel used by Jackson's King Kong or by Jurassic Park 2 or that American Godzilla travesty. I prefer to watch films that bear repeating and don't rely strictly on shock or one-time spectacle to engage you.

The "Smile Time" episode of "ANGEL" was sheer genius. They took the whole puppet thing and made it work in their haunted, mystical universe. It was done in a way that didn't make it smarmy or trite. In fact, it was downright creepy when the demon puppet shoved a hand up the puppeteer and there was a squelching, wet-meat noise! Made my skin crawl in the best possible way. I only wish I had thought of it! And when puppet Angel met up with Spike and Spike started in on all the demeaning quips, "Who's a wee puppet man, now?"... hilarious (especially in that accent)!

For TVTV we're trying for smart humor. Something with a panache. Something that won't insult your intelligence, but will still be a little naughty. And that's a tough row to hoe, lemme tell ya! I'm absolutely certain we're going to have the same kinds of arguments among our staff about what's edgy and funny and such as they had among the staff at Monty Python. They went back and forth about verbal versus physical humor all the time because Eric Idle was a verbal guy and John Cleese was a physical guy and they both believed that their particular form was superior.

Which is why we tend to use the term "puppet sitcom for grown ups" as opposed to "adult", which has a cache of subtext that doesn't really apply to what we do.

And I want to state for the record: We were using the term "puppetry for grown ups" LONG before "Henson's Puppet Up" started using it. Not that I'm gonna sue or anything. I'm just sayin....

As for the quality of puppetry on OUR show, I can tell you that we never actually intend for the puppetry to be bad. And to that end, we're scheduling puppeteer workshops for the cast to keep the skills up and to refine them so when we engage episode 2 we'll be better and then when we get to episode 3 we'll be even better than that. I'm fairly well practiced at manipulation and even I get rusty in between shoots and events. I can only imagine how rough it can be on those of our cast who picked it up really for the first time just for the pilot of TVTV!

But I agree. Bad puppetry (whether hand puppets or marionettes or whatever) is NOT funny OR entertaining as anything other than a one-shot gag. And if it is a one-shot gag, it had better be legitimate bad-puppetry in form and done impeccably bad. Otherwise, its just pathetic.

And now we return you to a thread that has reasonably long posts!

-Gordon

 

[Toasty]

As for the quality of puppetry on OUR show, I can tell you that we never actually intend for the puppetry to be bad. And to that end, we're scheduling puppeteer workshops for the cast to keep the skills up and to refine them so when we engage episode 2 we'll be better and then when we get to episode 3 we'll be even better than that. I'm fairly well practiced at manipulation and even I get rusty in between shoots and events. I can only imagine how rough it can be on those of our cast who picked it up really for the first time just for the pilot of TVTV!

But I agree. Bad puppetry (whether hand puppets or marionettes or whatever) is NOT funny OR entertaining as anything other than a one-shot gag. And if it is a one-shot gag, it had better be legitimate bad-puppetry in form and done impeccably bad. Otherwise, its just pathetic.

And now we return you to a thread that has reasonably long posts!

-Gordon

All very good points by Gordon. I concur.

And puppeteering skill is THE thing for me that will determine whether I'm able to even view a show (or a clip) long enough to form deeper opinions about it. I know good puppet manipulation when I see it, and can look past many other technical factors (lighting, camera work, sound quality) that might hinder a production's viewing accessibility. But I'll never get far enough into the production to find out if the writing is good, or the characters are interesting, if all I see is terrible lip synch, poor puppet eye focus, etc.

I know the time involved and efforts that some people go through to put together a filmed puppet production. Gordon is a very good example of someone, in my opinion, who has done it all kinds of right. He took the time to figure out the technical stuff and turned out a product with a high end look and excellent puppetry to match the quality of his writing and characters.

I would never speak negatively about others in the puppet community (here and elsewhere) who have attempted (or are continuing to attempt) similar productions. But I will say that I cannot understand why someone would want to invest all kinds of time developing an episodic storyline, a multitude of clever characters, sets, and present it on the web with clever graphics, and then have really poor puppetry that makes the series all but unwatchable, at least for me. I'm particularly frustrated by situations like this, because I WANT to watch and learn about the characters because the writing seems really interesting, but I just can't get past the poor manipulation (lip synch, etc) in most scenes. I really respect the IMMENSE amount of work that has clearly gone into most every facet of this web series and I've continued to TRY to revisit newer shows to see if the puppetry has improved.

It's like having a really good songwriter who's voice sounds like nails on a chalkboard. No matter how good his songs are, there aren't many people who will be able to hang in there long enough to find out just what he has to sing about.

I will say that my puppetry standards are very high. I practice my own manipulation technique constantly and will not screen my own projects for others unless I'm completely (or nearly so) happy with my puppetry (and other technical factors, beyond the writing, of course).

It's interesting that there is such a huge quantity of really bad puppetry online. Finding a quality piece of original work by a relatively unknown artist is a rare find on places like You Tube.

I'm not trying to come off as an elitist with all of this commentary. I guess I'm just curious if anyone else here experiences the same mental roadblocks when watching new puppet videos. No matter what the intent of the writing may be, can you watch a puppet-based production for more than a minute if the manipulation is really poor?

Sorry for the long-winded post.

 

[wickedpuppets]

For TVTV we're trying for smart humor. Something with a panache. Something that won't insult your intelligence, but will still be a little naughty. And that's a tough row to hoe, lemme tell ya! I'm absolutely certain we're going to have the same kinds of arguments among our staff about what's edgy and funny and such as they had among the staff at Monty Python. They went back and forth about verbal versus physical humor all the time because Eric Idle was a verbal guy and John Cleese was a physical guy and they both believed that their particular form was superior.

Which is why we tend to use the term "puppet sitcom for grown ups" as opposed to "adult", which has a cache of subtext that doesn't really apply to what we do.

And I want to state for the record: We were using the term "puppetry for grown ups" LONG before "Henson's Puppet Up" started using it. Not that I'm gonna sue or anything. I'm just sayin....

First I hated to chop up your post Gordon, but I only really wanted to chime in on the above part

Second, Once again I find myself CHEERING when i read your words. (that could be good or bad depending on who reads that lol)

Anyway, I want to ask you:

Do you think the TERMS "Puppetry For Adults" & "Puppetry For Grown Ups" have differant meanings, regardless of a shows pitch or content? and if so what is the reasoning in your mind?

Two years ago when I came back into puppetry I dubbed our show/studio "Puppetry For Adults.... These Ain't No Saturday Morning Kid Shows" and RIGHT OFF the bat (before I even had anything made lol) we were almost shunned in certain circles, I spent WEEKS explaining that we were not in the midst of remaking "Deep Throat" with puppets or anything like that, but mearly a show more along the lines of Greg The Bunny, Puppets Who Kill, Feebles, Crank Yankers etc etc etc.

For whatever reason that did not seem to matter too much, long before we EVER let ANY of our main (yet to go into production) show was actually explained people thought the compleat worse.

Then I dropped the term "Adult" and switched it to "Grown Ups" (ALSO before Puppet up lol) and the tension dropped A TAD, Now we just dropped all but the 'Saturday morning kid shows' reference.

I get the feeling (and I will most likely take flack for this) but alot of people must feel if puppets are not preaching or teaching they have no place in puppetry UNLESS they were infotainment / edutainment ala muppets, fraggles etc.

I truly hope that is not the case, and it's just my over parinoid mind thinking we are the bane of the world of puppetry, but who knows lol

at any rate, I was just wondering what you (and others) thought about that, how two terms can, and do get taking so diff, and why it is in the first place.

(Spelling errors left in for your pleasure)

-Loki-

 

[spcglider]

The term "adult" was adopted in entertainment to mean "containing sexual stuff" back in the 1970's or 60's. Nowadays the term is practically synonymous with "XXX" or the like. It just has connotations assigned to it. As much as I'd like to be able to use the term, I'm not willing to fight society's perceptions to do so. The term "gown ups" is a little less abrasive and lets folks know that it isn't necessarily some kind of smut.

We all know Americans in general have a hard time with viewing puppetry as anything other than kiddie stuff or the occasional pan flash, hackneyed, rectum-joke-filled novelty sketch. Its just something we as puppeteers need to try to overcome through education. Puppet theatre the world over is considered a National Art Form in countries other than here. Kings as well as the common folk were, and still are, entertained by puppetry as legitimate theatre in almost the whole world except here. not that it doesn't happen here, but it's not accepted on the major scale here as elsewhere.

I mean, even the amazing work done by animation studios like Disney and Pixar hasn't done much to change the Ameican attitude towards the art of animation. To the majority, its' still just "cartoons". And they have massive budgets and all the technology you can think of at their disposal to help change people's minds... what hope does puppet theatre have? Not even the American Legend James Maury Henson could weild the power to make the change.

Bottom line, it'll be an uphill journey forever. But that doesn't negate the need to keep trying.

-Gordon