Confusion at the end of Muppets Take Manhattan

[GelflingWaldo]

I was watching The Muppets Take Mamhattan today, and something I noticed many times hit me again and I thought maybe some other fans could share their 2 cents on it too.

When they put on Manhattan Melodies at the end, the musical seems quite fun for the audiance, and the audiance seems to love it. Yet when the characters enter the church for the wedding scene the church set on the stage blocks the audiance from seeing anything. Their are walls on all 4 sides of the room, how does the audiance see what is going on in the musical that they paid to go see? It seems like they should have gotten a better set designer to build a set where the audiance could see the final scene of the show, or at least remove the back wall of the church set.

Second, Kermit thought Gonzo was going to play the minister, but Piggy got someone to. It seems implied that Piggy got a real minister. If she did? And if so aren't Kermit and Piggy married at the end? Did they get it anulled, and they divorced, are they married in future productions, or does this film not fit into the real muppet timeline of the muppets hisoty (like The Great Muppet Caper, Christmas Carol, and Treasure Island don't fit in as real muppet history but rather movie presented by the muppets as character. Muppet Babies doesn't fit cause it is a big "what if the muppets knew each other as kids" and is not true Muppet character history... but The Muppet Movie, Muppet Show, Muppet Tonight, Muppets from Space, Verry Merry Muppet Christms and most of the specials do fit into the true Muppet timeline and character backgrounds). Basicly, what's the deal with this marrage?

 

[christyb]

1) I haven't seen the movie (sad i know)(it would be helpful if I have)
2) I have read before that there was an actual minister performing the ceremony. So from my understand this scene either A) doesn't fit into the timeline or B) kermit just hates to admit the fact that he's married to Miss Piggy .

 

[muppetsforlife]

I always took it to mean that they got married in real life. I seem to remember it mentioned something about it in one of the bonus features on the muppet show DVDs. In one of the bonus features where they have the muppetisms. Ms. Piggy is yelling at Kermit and says something about being his wife. I'd have to watch the segment again to be sure. I can't remember which DVD it is on.

 

[muppetsforlife]

If i'm correct, the next movie that was made was the Muppet Christmas Carol. They were married in that and had children on top of it. I always took that as part of the timeline. But than again if thats the case muppet treasure Island wouldn't fit into that. Because Kermit had left her at the altar. So i'm not sure.

 

[Beth C]

Ooooookay... I love this part!

I'm a BIGGGGG fan of Kermit/Piggy relationship-marriage and I think they belong together.

(See Behind the Romance-There is Reality for details- soon to be updated!)

Now in Muppet Christmas Carol they were playing PARTS, they were not married nor did they have kids. Tiny Tim was played by Robin who is most defintely NOT Kermit's son, but played the part in the movie. I figure the 'daughters' were Piggy's nieces or something.

In Muppet Treasure Island, again they were playing parts, Benjamina and Captain Smollet. Again, not really real, just parts in a play.

Now, the Muppet Move, the Great Muppet Caper and the Muppets take Manhattan are what I consider to be 'reality' movies - they tell the basic 'backstory' of the Muppets with a bit of enhancing to make a better story. I also add to this catagory, Rocky Mountain Holiday and A Very Merry Mupppet Christmas and Muppet Family Christmas. Anything that has the Muppets as themselves falls into this catagory.

I won't even touch Muppet Babies. Alternate Reality or something.

Now to the 'wedding scene' that I love so much. I do agree that it appears that they got married, but it was still part of the play. Even though there was a real minister, I'm sure there was no real papers signed by Kermit and no official license. Being one who has both been married AND divorced, I know that you have to sign papers in order to get the license to marry and I'm quite sure Kermit didn't sign anything.

So, in Piggy's eyes, by getting the real minister, she was hoping that it would be real enough to Kermit that he would sign the papers later, but he was smart enough to know that all he had to do was get through it. Once the show was over, then they would still be single. In both christmas movies, Kermit was worried about Piggy (oh yeah, the writers gave me plenty of fuel for story writing) but he didn't act like he was married to her. I love the reaction Piggy gives once KERMIT KISSES HER OF HIS OWN FREE WILL in the Merry Muppet Christmas one. She turns to everyone on the stage and says "Did you see that? Kermit KISSED ME! HE KISSED ME!" Now that is not a line you hear from a wife. That was made in 2002.

So to sum up, as much as I would LOVE that wedding scene in Muppets Take Manhattan to be real, it is not. I do firmly believe that Kermit LOVES Piggy and in my stories they will eventually be wed. I'm still working on Behind the Reality, but it has been slow going as I am also working on a christmas story of my own called "We Need a Little Christmas" and it should be ready soon to put a part up.

I hope this helped. Sorry to type so much, but Kermit/Piggy is my favorite Muppet subject of all time!

~Beth C + = LOVE

 

[GelflingWaldo]

Now, the Muppet Move, the Great Muppet Caper and the Muppets take Manhattan are what I consider to be 'reality' movies - they tell the basic 'backstory' of the Muppets with a bit of enhancing to make a better story.

I agree with your logic except for one thing: I would consider The Great Muppet Caper as the Muppets playing characters and not "muppet reality". First they say this is a movie and referance it as a movie several times, and in the begining song say they are playing reporters. Second, Kermit and the gang met the Happiness Hotel folk (and other Muppets) for the first time in England though most of them they met before in the Muppet Movie and Muppet Show (for the first time). And if the whole Fozzie and Kermit being twins thing is proof enough I don't know what is. It is a great film, but it is the Muppets presenting an original story to the audiance as actors, it is not real Muppet history in the Muppet world.

 

[timrikthegorf]

It goes like this. In all the movies it's pretty much said it's just a movie (except for MFS for some reason). TMM is obviously a movie. GMC is obviously a movie. MTM is't as obvious, but it is just a movie with the muppets playing parts. There are hints somewhere. MCC is just a movie as we see with GOnzo and Rizzo and also with Sam when he messes up" a line. MTI couldn't have any more obvious refferences to it just being a movie. So, those 5 movies are just movies with the muppets playing parts.

Now, in MTM Kermit says to Piggy "I thiought Gonzo was suppose to play the minister.". Now, as I see it, this is more than just MTM Kermit saying it to MTM Piggy. It's THE Kermit saying it to THE Piggy. TMT Kermit wasn't on TMS or anything. MTM Kermit exists only in MTM. Smae with Piggy. But THE Kermit is the KErmit playing the role of MTM Kermit. So, it could be said that THE Kermit thought THE Gonzo was going to play the minister and ended up "really" marrying THE Piggy. It could also be said the MTM Kermit and MTM Piggy were married and it doesn't go outside of the movie. So, you have to look for proof of a marriage outside of the movie, but not in the context of another movie.

In the Muppet Celebrate 30 years Piggy says Kermit is a "happily married frog" and Kermit doesn't dispute this. So, I think that's proof that Kermit and Piggy are married, or were for a time. The problem is that Steve will now deny this when playing Kermit and they haven't been portrayed as being married in other productions outside of MCC and in MCC they were just playing parts. In MFS and MT their marrage was never brought up as far as I know, and in MFS they clearly had separate rooms and obviously didn't live alone.

So, as I see it, Jim Henson decided to have the to character marry. After Jim Henson's deaththis was either forgotten about and it was decieded to change history.

 

[Frogpuppeteer]

something that supports a piggy kermit marrige is when kermit was on the news talking to ted copple or whoever it was piggy came in and ask what time kermit was coming home

 

[Vic Romano]

Now, as I see it, this is more than just MTM Kermit saying it to MTM Piggy. It's THE Kermit saying it to THE Piggy. TMT Kermit wasn't on TMS or anything. MTM Kermit exists only in MTM. Smae with Piggy. But THE Kermit is the KErmit playing the role of MTM Kermit. So, it could be said that THE Kermit thought THE Gonzo was going to play the minister and ended up "really" marrying THE Piggy. It could also be said the MTM Kermit and MTM Piggy were married and it doesn't go outside of the movie. So, you have to look for proof of a marriage outside of the movie, but not in the context of another movie.

You totally lost me on this.

I agree with most of you that the classic three movies are to be taken with a tounge in cheek view. MFS may be muppet fact, but MTM and GMC can't. In MTM, they ALWAYS break the 4th wall that this is a movie and joke with it. Besides, the idea that they all went to the same college and portrayed a life on Broadway is a little hard to (muppet factually) swallow.

In the begining of TMM, Robin asks Kermit ithis is really how the Muppets met. Kermit seems to hold back a laugh and says something to the effect of "Kinda'."

In TMS when Roy Rogers is the guest, Kermit interviews him on the wall and makes note of the immense number of movies Roy had made, Kermit looks a little down and remarks: "I only made one."

I know that this topic is a little sensitive to other members hear who believe that ALL Muppet movies are complete and total fiction in the Muppet world, and the gang plays there part as actors, it's there job, nothing more.

 

[timrikthegorf]

MTM Kermit is the character of Kermit in MTM. THE Kermit is the KErmit who played MTM Kermit. The same goes for GMC Kermit and THE Kermit. GMC Kermit is a news reporter and the twin brother of GMC Fozzie. THE Kermit is a movie star that played a a character in GMC named Kermit.

So, when I say MTM KErmit, I mean the character of Kermit who is defined only by the sotry in MTM. MTM Kermit never made a movie, he went from college to broadway and was never famous, while THE Kermit played a part in MTM and is famous. It's hard to define when the muppets play characters of the same name in a movie with similar personalities. It's like when Liza was in MTM. She played herself in the movie, but a frog didn't take her picture off the wall in "real life". Only in movie in which she happened to play herself.

It's very hard to explain, but at least I know what I'm talking about.