Bible Study

[dwayne1115]

If God gives each of us free will, then why should one person impose on the free will of two other people by giving them up to a maddened crowd to be raped?

*sigh*
Because even though God gave us a free will we as humans have almost always tried to control other humans especially when it is our offspring.

 

[Old Thunder]

So some of the great people the Bible puts on a pedestal aren’t so great after all...

 

[dwayne1115]

With the exception of Jesus no one in the Bible is perfect.

 

[dwayne1115]

For those who may be wondering what we are talking about this is from Genesis 19. Lot did give his daughters to the men of the city, but at the end of the chapter it was Lot who was "raped"

19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:

19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.

21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.

22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.

23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.

24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord:

28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

 

[snichols1973]

It is a very uncomfortable story... the reason Lot did that is because the men of the city wanted the two angles that came to vist Lot.

The setting: Sodom

Man #1: I'll take the acute angle!
Man #2: I'll take the right one.
Man #3: Aww, I wish there was an obtuse one for me.

 

[snichols1973]

It is a very uncomfortable story... the reason Lot did that is because the men of the city wanted the two angles that came to vist Lot.

Ezekiel gives a harsher view when he (allegorically) likens the fallen Jerusalem to a harlot in chapter 16, vv. 48-51, and this was around the time when the inhabitants of Judah were taken to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar c. 587 B.C.:

As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.

Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins which thou hast committed more abominable than they; they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

That thou mightest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.

When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Even Jesus mentioned that other impenitent cities in northern Galilee which witnessed His miracles but refused to repent would receive comparatively harsher treatment than the Phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon (Matt. 11:20-24):

Woe unto thee, Chorazin! Woe unto thee, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment than for you.

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hel-l: For if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Jesus would later visit Tyre and Sidon, healing a Greek Syrophoenician woman's demon-possessed daughter and a deaf man with a speech impediment (Mark 7:24-37).

(Sorry about that, folks; I had to find a way to work around the "Skunkthorpe" problem, which would probably also block the other name for an acacia tree: shi-[double Tau]-im; replace Tau with T):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem

 

[snichols1973]

I do not fully understand Lot or why God chose to bring him out of Sodom or why in the book of Hebrews he is called a just man. Despite his actions God must have seen something in Lot, but what that was I don't know.

It's been a while since I read up on Lot, so there may be something I'm missing as well.

Even though Lot made some short-sighted choices in choosing the valley for pasture land without considering the moral decadence of the inhabitants, Abraham manages to convince God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if as few as 10 righteous people can be found there.

Unfortunately, Lot's wife is so emotionally attached to Sodom that she takes one longing look back and gets turned into a pillar of salt, while his widowed daughters resort to desperate means to become impregnated through incest while he's drunk and unconscious, with the daughters lying with him (Gen. 19:21-38):

And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, that we may preserve seed of our father.

And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-Ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

The New Testament looks at Lot a bit more favorably than the Old Testament (2 Peter 2:6-8):

And turning the ashes of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them into an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)

 

[dwayne1115]

See I believe that the Bible is a guid for how we should live our lives today. I take the accounts of Lot and how we were previously talking about Jonah as examples of what not to do. God never said that the people in the Bible were perfect, he did say in countless places that his word was perfect.

 

[Old Thunder]

Alright, I’ll accept that Lot was just an idiot. But you’ll have to have a really good explanation before I stop looking at Moses as a misogynist and pedophile.

 

[dwayne1115]

Alright, I’ll accept that Lot was just an idiot. But you’ll have to have a really good explanation before I stop looking at Moses as a misogynist and pedophile.

Ok what do you want me to say to that? I'm not going to heaven because of anything Moses did. Moses was far from perfect but God was still able to use him despite his faults failures and sins.

Romans 3 23 is very clear when it says "For ALL have sinne" that would therefore mean Moses and anyone else in the Bible except Jesus Christ.