Back To Square One?(The Muppets' 60th Anniversary)

[SpookyMania]

Muppets Tonight had so many great characters (and a few bad characters, though some fans may think differently regarding whether certain characters were great or annoying), but part of the problem was that they had so many new characters at once and so much focus on them over the classics that we knew. In fact while a lot of us felt that way, I don't think I've heard of any instances where a casual fan or reviewers cited that as a negative point about the show (though according to Jim Henson: The Biography, critics disliked the new characters from The Jim Henson Hour). I can imagine casual fans tuning in hoping to see their favorite characters and possibly being surprised, at the very least by Kermit not hosting, wondering who Clifford was, and at the very least surprised that Miss Piggy and Fozzie weren't used that much (though of those two I initially only noticed Fozzie not getting much screen time).

At the time Muppets Tonight premiered, I didn't have the internet, so there was a lot I didn't know (in addition to a lot that I did know). By that point I was really just starting to know that Frank Oz had a directing career but didn't realize that it interfered with him performing the Muppets. I knew Jim Henson had died and suspected that Richard Hunt had also, but didn't think they were avoiding recasting (the three biggest Muppet productions to have come out after that were productions where the Muppets played roles, which seems to make it natural that certain main characters wouldn't have sizable parts). Kirk Thatcher and Jim Lewis have both said that they thought of the show as a "next generation" series and that introducing many new characters was necessary. In The Muppet Mindset interview with Kirk Thatcher, he pointed out that new characters were introduced all the time on The Muppet Show (though it seems like new characters were scarcer in the last two seasons, where most new characters, even ones that weren't made from Whatnots, only appeared in one or two episodes). That got me thinking about Sesame Street: For awhile, I had noticed that there had only been a small number of new characters in the past several years, but then I started thinking that for about the first 31 seasons, there were new Muppets introduced all the time on that show, and then the creation of new recurring Muppets started to drop within a year of Sesame Workshop buying the Sesame Street Muppets. Makes me wonder if Henson was more interested in creating new characters than Sesame Workshop, or if the Workshop felt they had enough characters by then (there were a fair number of new characters within the first couple of years after the change in ownership - Lulu, Little Murray Sparkles, the Monster Clubhouse cast, Curly Bear, Cousin Monster - but with the possible exception of Curly Bear - I'm not sure how often Baby Bear's family has been used in the last few seasons - none of those characters lasted). Of course there's also the fact that shortly after that Sesame Workshop changed the format to include many recurring segments needed for every episode (or every other episode), many fairly long and only featuring a handful of familiar characters, and then shortening the number of episodes per season to 26, which might make it difficult to find time to introduce new characters.

Back when the new Muppet show planned for Fox was announced, press releases said that it would have new characters. I was thinking that The Jim Henson Company "knew better" at that point about having more new characters than old characters, and at this point the company was starting to recast Scooter, Rowlf, Dr. Teeth, Janice, and others, but I had worried that the mention of new characters meant that they'd be featured more than the old characters. But then recently the pilot script leaked online, and there's not really any new characters in that script. I don't really know what to make of the pilot script... There are good things about it, but also a lot that wasn't that great.

There are so many theories about what caused Muppets Tonight to be canceled, some more likely than others, but Kirk Thatcher recently mentioned something that he thinks might have contributed to it: At the time, ABC got a manager who was mostly interested in shows that brought in males aged 18-35, a demographic that likely wasn't going to be too interested in Muppets unless they had kids.

Wait, there was supposed to be a show for Fox? That's news to me. I'm going to have to seek out that leaked script.

 

[Drtooth]

It's pretty common knowledge around here.

Then again, the thing was proposed back in 2002.

And it's freaking awful. It's so the product of something made in 2002.

 

[SpookyMania]

Somehow I was not aware of this. I'm reading it right now. Yikes!

 

[Drtooth]

Don't even bother looking (though it can be found somewhere on this message board, I forget where). Imagine all the pop culture based segments of VMX. Now imagine an entire show of that but worse! They opened the show with a parody of MTV's Jack@**. Did we really want to see the Muppets stoop to parodying that?

 

[minor muppetz]

Looking at the script, I am mixed about whether I like or dislike it. It mentioned quite a few guest stars who I'm not interested in,and the sketches aren't that great (especially not the "plot"). But I'm sure many of us would have really liked it back then, as it heavily featured Scooter and had good parts for Rowlf and the Electric Mayhem. I'll agree with the comment about the pop culture stuff being worse than It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie. I really like that movie and enjoy a lot of the pop culture stuff there (but at the same time, some of the pop culture stuff and celebrity appearances are among the worst parts). Of course, it seems like the majority of us really praised the movie back when it came out, not disliking or hating it until later (and I still like it).

It was once again a variety show, but it also had its differences from TMS, JHH, and MT. It seems the show wasn't going to have one guest star for the show, as multiple guests appeared (Muppets Tonight regularly had cameos by celebrities, but usually still had one guest announced as the guest star). And the writers said on a blog that Fox did not want the show to have backstage wrap-around segments. And that's odd to think about, I would think that most networks would prefer more plot than unrelated sketches. Though it kind of did have a plot with Kermit planning a Shakespearian act, though it looks like those scenes all take place in front of the curtain.

I wonder how America's Next Muppet would have done. Of course, that show was intended on lasting only six episodes, so it probably wouldn't have mattered once. I've read that at first the show was going to have the Muppets audition puppeteers, which would have been odd... Why would the general public care who puppeteers for the Muppets?Why should the Muppets be the ones judging them (the performers would be better)? And Disney most likely wouldn't consider a show like that today.

 

[Drtooth]

Looking at the script, I am mixed about whether I like or dislike it. It mentioned quite a few guest stars who I'm not interested in,and the sketches aren't that great (especially not the "plot"). But I'm sure many of us would have really liked it back then, as it heavily featured Scooter and had good parts for Rowlf and the Electric Mayhem. I'll agree with the comment about the pop culture stuff being worse than It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie. I really like that movie and enjoy a lot of the pop culture stuff there (but at the same time, some of the pop culture stuff and celebrity appearances are among the worst parts). Of course, it seems like the majority of us really praised the movie back when it came out, not disliking or hating it until later (and I still like it).

I can praise them for trying to put in classic characters, and there were genuinely decent concepts in it. But I really think the over abundance of pop culture heavy skits would have been tiresome and it was a poor fit for the Muppets. Granted, this is looking back from a viewpoint where the horrid parody movie genre was still relevant and not absolutely terrible yet... it probably could have played alright then. But looking back when we have at least 2 DTV "parodies" of The Hunger Games with every single movie they can crush into them, this series would have aged poorly.

There were some great Pop culture bits in MT, let's not forget. Seinfeld Babies, Co-Dependants Day, Kermit's Once in a Lifetime cover among others. Then there's the shallow parody with pigs stuff that failed on every level. I'd tend to think that Fox series would have been more like that.

 

[Muppet Master]

Looking at the script, I am mixed about whether I like or dislike it. It mentioned quite a few guest stars who I'm not interested in,and the sketches aren't that great (especially not the "plot"). But I'm sure many of us would have really liked it back then, as it heavily featured Scooter and had good parts for Rowlf and the Electric Mayhem. I'll agree with the comment about the pop culture stuff being worse than It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie. I really like that movie and enjoy a lot of the pop culture stuff there (but at the same time, some of the pop culture stuff and celebrity appearances are among the worst parts). Of course, it seems like the majority of us really praised the movie back when it came out, not disliking or hating it until later (and I still like it).

It was once again a variety show, but it also had its differences from TMS, JHH, and MT. It seems the show wasn't going to have one guest star for the show, as multiple guests appeared (Muppets Tonight regularly had cameos by celebrities, but usually still had one guest announced as the guest star). And the writers said on a blog that Fox did not want the show to have backstage wrap-around segments. And that's odd to think about, I would think that most networks would prefer more plot than unrelated sketches. Though it kind of did have a plot with Kermit planning a Shakespearian act, though it looks like those scenes all take place in front of the curtain.

I wonder how America's Next Muppet would have done. Of course, that show was intended on lasting only six episodes, so it probably wouldn't have mattered once. I've read that at first the show was going to have the Muppets audition puppeteers, which would have been odd... Why would the general public care who puppeteers for the Muppets?Why should the Muppets be the ones judging them (the performers would be better)? And Disney most likely wouldn't consider a show like that today.

I think Fox wanted this to be their next In Living Color, but without backstage stuff, TMS would not have been as good as it is, so they really need a plot. The America's Next Muppet is a horrible concept, even I probably would not care for it. I think it would have started off with okay ratings, then decline rapidly, it does not seem like the show would be good.

 

[Drtooth]

I don't think that was the case. They already had their next In Living Color through MadTV. Clearly they were trying to go with the "edgy" direction, and back then it meant making as many pop culture references as possible in a short time frame. Like I said, this was back when people actually tolerated Scary Movie type films and they made money. While I think it worked as a one time thing with VMX, remember the telefilm that came after it that tried to do the same thing and failed. That kind of humor had a short shelf life. Not a good fit for a continuous project.

And that was an era when Fox had a revolving door as far as television programs went. if it wasn't 24, The Simpsons (remember, this was when they cancelled Family Guy the second time), or American Idol, it just didn't fit on the schedule. I don't know if Greg the Bunny or Muppets were pitched first, but GTB didn't last all that long, I doubt even the bigger name of the Muppets would have been a draw.

And America's Next Top Muppet was a terrible idea that was pitched at the tail end of tolerance of reality shows.

 

[minor muppetz]

And that was an era when Fox had a revolving door as far as television programs went. if it wasn't 24, The Simpsons (remember, this was when they cancelled Family Guy the second time), or American Idol, it just didn't fit on the schedule. I don't know if Greg the Bunny or Muppets were pitched first, but GTB didn't last all that long, I doubt even the bigger name of the Muppets would have been a draw.

I remember when the show was announced, I saw some comments on the forum about it being a good thing the show would air on Fox because Fox tended to give shows a second chance if the ratings weren't good.

Greg the Bunny was a good show that never should have been canceled (and it's a shame that they unexpectedly aired Bernie Mac in the shows timeline). At the time, it seems like there were a lot of adult puppet shows, with Greg the Bunny, Crank Yankers, TV Funhouse, and I think a few others (Wonder Showzen came a few years later). Kind of like how a few years before that, there were suddenly a lot of animated shows for adults (besides The Simpsons and King of the Hill, there was South Park, Family Guy, Futurama, The PJs, Home Movies, Dilbert, Clerks, and I think a few more).

 

[Drtooth]

Wonder Showzen was a much better show. While I liked Greg, a lot of the jokes were the same adult pot shot types you see in this kind of thing. Of course, it didn't completely get cancelled since it managed to move to a cable channel, but with a huge format change of movie parodies or something. But something like Wonder Showzen needed cable, even though it was a short run.

But my point is, Fox Presents Muppet Pop Culture Joke extravaganza would have been yet another in a long line of niche shows Fox failed with in the early to mid-00's. We'd've seen Muppets doing weak parodies and then just for a short time before the show got axed. To give you a refresher of how many failed shows there were, lemme see if I can get that Family Guy quote...

Peter: Everybody, I got bad news. We've been canceled.
Lois: Oh, no! Peter, how could they do that?
Peter: Well, unfortunately, Lois, there's just no more room on the schedule. We've just got to accept the fact that Fox has to make room for terrific shows, like Dark Angel, Titus, Undeclared, Action, That '80s Show, Wonderfalls, Fastlane, Andy Richter Controls the Universe, Skin, Girls Club, Cracking Up, The Pitts, Firefly, Get Real, FreakyLinks, Wanda at Large, Costello, The Lone Gunmen, A Minute with Stan Hooper, Normal, Ohio, Pasadena, Harsh Realm, Keen Eddie, The $treet, American Embassy, Cedric the Entertainer, The Tick, Luis, and Greg the Bunny.
Lois: Is there no hope?
Peter: Well, I suppose if all those shows go down the tubes, we might have a shot.

The Muppets would have totally been on that list. And it would have been really divisive to the fanbase.