Ahhhhh!

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by ryhoyarbie
I don't even think Mr. T could do anything.

Did you try maybe Rambo?


Yo!

 

[wwfpooh]

Well, I never said I gave them permission!

I know. But in previous years, this was one of the few rules still obeyed. Why change now?

This was a particularly violent and out of control school.

So I noticed in terms of your manner of speach.

I assure you that anything like that is dealt with very very intensely in schools.

As they should be.

As for the attitude shift, I heard a 5 year old today inform a girl that his cousin would beat up a girl,

What if said cousin was being bullied by said girl (or a guy, it really doesn't matter; If ya smellaah...heck, you get the idea of what this post is cookin')?

Does the cousin take the beating & taunting (thus being labeled a wuss or sissy), take a stand by leveling them one (thus getting themselves into trouble with the school system), or do they turn to the teachers for help (note that for the most part--in my experience--the last one rarely helped, considering some punks [mostly guys that thought they were jocks when they really weren't] in my high school tortured me [i.e. they pants'd me, they tied me face first to the bleachers and started hiting me, made fun of my build and fandom for certain things--including The Muppets--and in junior high before all that, some kid threatened to kill me with a knife], all despite the teacher's increased regulatory & disiplinary actions)?

 

[Leyla]

I know. But in previous years, this was one of the few rules still obeyed. Why change now?

Well, I would postulate that it has less to do with people following rules, and more to do with a shift in the image of women, who are less seen as the weaker sex, and more as equals. However, I also disagree with you that that "rule" was obeyed anyway. A macho guy might not have been seen as "the man" if he punched out a girl, but if he abused his girlfriend or wife out of public view, society didn't say boo to stop it.

So I noticed in terms of your manner of speach.

I beg your pardon? I do not know how my manner of speech would give you that impression. If you're referring to the pattern of speech my student displayed, that was at an entirely different school, and that particular pattern of speech is not, in itself, an indication of violence.

As they should be.What if said cousin was being bullied by said girl (or a guy, it really doesn't matter; If ya smellaah...heck, you get the idea of what this post is cookin')?

I'm afraid you have entirely missed my point. I was not showing you that example to advocate bullying, or fighting back, or NOT fighting back. The child was boasting of his cousin's apparent willingness to strike a girl, under, I presume, any circumstances, bullying or no, simply because the girl was annoying the child in my class. I used that to support your OWN point, that the moray of striking a female being particularly shameful, seems to be changing.

It has nothing to do with bullying at all, and there's no evidence of that. I think you simply desired to bring up the issue of your own, very unfortunate, past, and to vent against the ineffectiveness of the various strategies that are employed against bullying. I do not advocate fighting back, or simply ignoring the very real, very serious problem of bullying. I do acknowledge that the school system has not been particularly effective in dealing with the problem, but I also know there have been major efforts and some progress made in that direction in many school districts. I am sorry you were treated so cruelly, and I am sorry that you seem to bear a grudge for those who tried, and yet failed, to help you. However, violence begets violence, and often times bullies are people who were, themselves, bullied, and who turned to violence as an answer. We have an image of the noble victim standing up for themselves, hitting the bully, and all going well, but that is not what happens. For one thing, the very definition of bullying implies, in fact, requires, MORE than one person on the aggressive side. It is not a one on one situation, so standing up to them sucessfully is likely to be next to impossible. The sad thing about that is that many people, having been bullied without defending themselves, often think "If only I had just hit him," believing it would have solved the problem. It would not have. In all likelyhood, the victim would have been set upon by the lead bully, AND his or her friends. (Bullying has absolutely nothing to do with gender. Only the tactics change) When a bullying situation is stopped by the action of the victim, what happens is an "if you can't beat em, join em" situation, where the victim begins to bully another person, weaker than they are. This is why bullying children are often from homes where violence is prevalent, either against their family members, often their mothers, though not always, or themselves. It is a vicious cycle, and more violence will not stop it.

Yes, bullies are cowards, they are weak when they are alone, but they are fighters too, and one punch will not stop a determined bully.

So, what's the approach now? How do we stop it, or at least, minimize it?

We go after the strength of the bully: the neutrality, or active support, of the other children.

A big focus now, and we may see the effectiveness, or ineffectiveness of this strategy down the line, is to concentrate efforts, not only on disciplining the bully, but on depriving her or him of the support. We attempt to teach empathy in schools... we educate children to the lie of neutrality. NO ONE is neutral when someone is bullying. If you walk away and say nothing, you are allowing it to happen. If you watch, you are encouraging it. And I suspect we both know that often, other children cheer, enjoy the fight, if their is one, or snicker at the suffering.

The problem with that strategy is that it is VERY hard to instill empathy if it is not present early in life. Very early. We can, and do try our best... but so much that we learn is not from teachers. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not excusing all teachers from wrong doing, or failure... however the vast majority of teachers out there are working VERY hard, and really care about the students they teach. Not all, but most.

We do not know yet, whether this particular strategy will be effective. I certainly hope it is. I think it needs to be at least part of the process, targeting the bully alone for punishment clearly does not work... because we cannot, by so doing, make them, well, suffer, enough to drown out the pleasure factor coming from the support of other students.

On further thought, the Muppets themselves have illustrated my point for me. Remember, if you have seen it, the standoff at the end of MTI. "Kill Captain Smollett and you'll have to kill me..." The aggressor was stopped because all of a sudden, he found himself against not one, but many, and no one around to back him or goad him on. Nicely played, Muppeteers! I hadn't really made that connection before.

 

[wwfpooh]

Well said. But how can we change the attitudes of kids so they'll stand on the side of the oppressed and not the oppressor? I mean, if teachers--who are there to enforce rules--can't get children to behave appropriately all the time, how can we--people who are ahead of the next generation that will be future leaders of tommorow--do so?

 

[Yva Minstrel]

Leyla,

I'm not a teacher, but your postings reminded me of how kids can sometimes be cruel to each other. Having been teased when I was a kid for the crime of wearing hand-me-down clothing and being slightly overweight, I could see where your suggestions would fit in there with simple psychology.

In fact, the substitute teacher I mentioned in my earlier posting, was like the person you described in your posting. She was very strict, but she was respected, fair and worked well with us. She knew that a sub was sort of throwing the wrench in the routine, but she tried to resolve that by keeping with the normal teacher's lesson plan. That is, I learned just as much from her, as I learned from any of my regular teachers, because she left an impact. In fact, to this day, I still remember her name. I think that she liked me as kid because I didn't push her buttons. At any rate, the other kids seemed to have had an internal understanding of her manner and behavior as well and they respected her and did not treat her like a substitute teacher.

But, I do remember once, this was some 30 or 31 years ago when we had a substitute and this was her very first subbing positition and she really didn't know what to expect, nor did she have a clue as to what to do. It was rather like the dog being able to sense a person's fear. Kids pick up on the insecurities of the teacher, and if the teacher handles him/herself as though a weakling, then the kids will react to that accordingly. If that substitute teacher comes in and they mean business, then the kids know that they might find their happy rears outside the school director's office if they continually misbehave.

At any rate, this lady comes into the classroom and is all nice to the kids, and some of the kids in the back start throwing paper wads and the like at her. She's not sure what to make of this, and I feel really sorry for her. Here I was an eight-year-old kid who was generally the outcast feeling bad for the substitute teacher.

I don't remember too much of what happened, as it was a long time ago, but I remember this poor lady trying to rally together about 30 eight-year-olds in the school yard, but can't. She's gets rather frustrated, and I'm sort of sitting in a sandpile watching this happen. Well after yet another failed attempt at getting everyone to go inside, I go over to her and pull on the sleeve of her dress and she looks down at me an I say something to the effect of 'don't give up'.

I mean; I was eight-years-old, not generally the goody-goody, but just a kid who sort of spent all her time keeping to herself and I'm seeing this poor woman try and deal with a bunch of wild kids and she's a step away from having a nervous breakdown. Eventually, one of the strictest teachers in the entire school, screamed out at our class like a drill sargeant to line up. We scurry into line and are literally led into the school like the Van Trapp children coming down the stairs at the beginning of 'The Sound of Music'.

Yeah, there are probably tricks of the trade that I don't know. But I still remember the one sub who was strict and demanded respect. She was a lot more effective at getting us to listen than the woman in the playground.

It's not about being mean, but kids need to learn respect, and from what you have said, some of them (not all) don't learn those things at home. Either the parents are both career oriented or too busy to pay their children the time of day. I have always believed that being a parent is not a privilege, but a responsibility.

Oh and what I said about teachers being those who inspire kids, I didn't just mean teachers who have a firm teaching job that they go to every day, I was also meaning the substitute teachers as well.

 

[Yva Minstrel]

Did you try maybe Rambo?

I was going to suggest Schwarzeneggar but he seems to be busy governing California.

Anyone see 'Kindergarten Cop'?

 

[wwfpooh]

Yeah. Seeing him go from Terminator to Kindergarten Cop was fun, although in the scale of things, there's rarely any difference in how dangerous the positions are. XD

 

[MrsPepper]

The thing is, if the teachers cannot communicate with these kids, how can anyone expect to teach them?

I know you were talking about learning German specifically, but that's a really good point in general. It seems like there is such a huge generation gap right now, and that teachers can't seem to connect with young students anymore.

When I'm a teacher that's something I hope to change.

 

[wwfpooh]

However, violence begets violence, and often times bullies are people who were, themselves, bullied, and who turned to violence as an answer.

But as you note, violence breeds violence, just as hate breeds hate (ex: the Hamas organization using a Mickey rip-off to instill in Islam-believing Muslim children the hatred the adult terrorist organizations have towards other nations, including the U.S.). So how can victims help themselves when the school system is ineffective, hitting the bully only causes more trouble, and taking in the bully's verbal taunts or physical attacks just makes one seem weak & does even more harm to the victim?

We have an image of the noble victim standing up for themselves, hitting the bully, and all going well, but that is not what happens.

This is true. But let's not forget that there are those who cannot--under circumstances--defend themselves (ex: my being tied up as mentioned). What about them? I mean, it seems to me now that unless a teacher or somebody important sees the act and does something good to stop it, then those who cannot defend themselves are so totally screwed over.

 

[Drtooth]

So how can victims help themselves when the school system is ineffective, hitting the bully only causes more trouble, and taking in the bully's verbal taunts or physical attacks just makes one seem weak & does even more harm to the victim?

Personally, there are times I wish I DID resort to violence. It's better than standing idlely by and have them infect my life like a virus. Of course, I don't mean anything severe... just pound them in the face a couple times, show 'em whos boss. Apparently their parents failed on some level. And every generation will have that crap.

After certain events in the late 90's, people should have learned that some people can go too far... but what they also should have learned is, no matter how physiologically bruised a kid gets from being tormented over and over, the people inflicting pain on others are just as dangerous, psychologically.