Muppets Tonight what went wrong?

[catherine]

are they the same as the muppet shows? I prefer the muppet shows, myslef more.

 

[minor muppetz]

I was thinking about how it was a poor decision to make Clifford the main character, since the general public wouldn't have known him too well (yeah, he was on The Jim Henson Hour and had appeared in the occasional Muppet production since), but then I remembered an interview where Kevin Clash said that Jim Henson once told him that if the Muppets ever got a new series he wanted Clifford to be the lead. Not often you hear of Jim Henson making a poor decision, though I'm sure if he was still alive Clifford's hosting duties would have been handled better.

I also recall an interview with Frank Oz where he said that he thought the show's big problem was the need to mix old ideas with new ideas, as opposed to being all new ideas. I wonder what he meant by that... With only new ideas then it wouldn't be a Muppet show it'd be an original Henson show (unless he didn't want to do a new Muppet series at the time).

 

[Mo Frackle]

I've heard that it was because ABC didn't know what to do with the show. But while som esay ABC kept changing the time slot, I only remember one time slot change: From friday nights to sundays, with the show being off the air for a month between the timeslot changes.

Actually, JHH was the show that had its timeslot changed around.

 

[Mo Frackle]

I was thinking about how it was a poor decision to make Clifford the main character, since the general public wouldn't have known him too well (yeah, he was on The Jim Henson Hour and had appeared in the occasional Muppet production since), but then I remembered an interview where Kevin Clash said that Jim Henson once told him that if the Muppets ever got a new series he wanted Clifford to be the lead. Not often you hear of Jim Henson making a poor decision, though I'm sure if he was still alive Clifford's hosting duties would have been handled better.

I also recall an interview with Frank Oz where he said that he thought the show's big problem was the need to mix old ideas with new ideas, as opposed to being all new ideas. I wonder what he meant by that... With only new ideas then it wouldn't be a Muppet show it'd be an original Henson show (unless he didn't want to do a new Muppet series at the time).

It's been awhile since I've heard the Kevin Clash interview, but did Kevin specifically say that Jim wanted Clifford to be the host? I remember Kevin mentioning that Jim wanted somebody other than Kermit to be the host (possibly, Jim was foreboding the fact that his busy schedule would have prevented Kermit from doing a lot).

Whether Jim was the one who decided on having Clifford as host or not, I think the main problem behind this was the writing. Kevin remembers that the MT writers really took away a lot of what made Clifford "Clifford". There was too much of an attempt to turn him into Kermit (and, as DrTooth mentioned, a talk show host).

 

[Mo Frackle]

I also agree that MT was hit and miss (especially season 1). I remember somebody (possibly Steve Whitmire?) mentioning that the reason why MT was so heavy on new characters was to breed new life into the Muppets. I'm guessing it was felt that adding a lot of new characters would have made 'new life' for the Muppets easier. Characters that worked could be added, greatly increasing the Muppet family, while characters that didn't work could be dropped.

I agree that the lack of classic Muppets was quite a loss. I remember a few episodes that Kermit wasn't even in (outside of the intro). But it was always fun whenever Kermit and other classic characters got to do things away from the studio (such as Kermit's date with Gilbert Godfrey). I really want to see the Muppets in more of sitcom situation; MT and a handful of TV specials may be the closest we get for now.

Gonzo also seemed to be used less on the show. Again, there were a few episodes that he wasn't in, but I really did enjoy Gonzo's new crazy stunts. To me, even with the presence of several new characters, Gonzo still stole the show whenever he was on.

I really wish that Bunsen and Beaker had more to do on the show. The Andie MacDowell episode is one of their few episodes, and definitely one of their best. It really gives us a chance to see other sides of both Bunsen and Beaker, and again, returns to that great 'sitcom' feel of the show.

Rizzo had quite a bit to do on the show. This was most likely done so that Steve could flesh out the character more. Rizzo was basically to Clifford what Scooter had been to Kermit.

The lack of other classic characters mostly had to do with characters not being recast at this early stage (although Bill Barretta does one of his first performances as Rowlf in an early episode). And, of course, there was the fact that Frank Oz wasn't always available.

The remaining 'classic' characters either were in the background, had one (or two) time cameos, or were not seen at all. Bean Bunny had a couple of cute (no pun intended) bits, as did Beau and Lew.

Most of the new characters were really great. The writers, producers, and performers made wise choices in deciding which MT characters could actually remain in the Muppet family. Pepe, Bobo, Johnny, Sal, Dr. Phil, and even Carl and Howard were great additions to the group. Though I do wish that a few other characters had stayed on (Seymour, Nigel, Eugene, Mulch, Darci, Spamella, Carter, and maybe even Bill the Bubble Guy-despite being a one joke character, but hey, so is Lew Zealand-and some of the guys from Deep Dish Nine). Mr. Poodlepants (who is clearly meant to be a parody of comedian Ed Wynn), while a funny looking character with a great voice, did seem a bit bland. Andy and Randy were great one-joke characters, but eventually overstayed their welcome (the writers must have noticed this, as they seemed to be used less in season two). Zippety Zap (again, a great looking character with a fun voice) seemed like a character whose material could have easily been given to Floyd. As much as I love Kevin Clash, I thought Mulch's constant growling was a bit annoying. Though I don't mind having Mulch there. In fact, I actually like the character, just not his growling.

 

[pojksd]

I haven't watched it yet, not much to say about it

 

[Drtooth]

I was thinking about how it was a poor decision to make Clifford the main character, since the general public wouldn't have known him too well (yeah, he was on The Jim Henson Hour and had appeared in the occasional Muppet production since), but then I remembered an interview where Kevin Clash said that Jim Henson once told him that if the Muppets ever got a new series he wanted Clifford to be the lead. Not often you hear of Jim Henson making a poor decision, though I'm sure if he was still alive Clifford's hosting duties would have been handled better.

Let's not forget how Kermit has had a diminished role in the Muppets until VMX. For whatever reason, while it worked for Kermit to play Bob Cratchit, I still find MTI a weird choice, and the captain that doesn't pop up until a third of the way in to the film a weirder choice.

My problem isn't Clifford's leading the show. They clearly wanted this to be a next generational thing. Not to mention the fact that Kermit wouldn't have fit in as the "young hip" character they were using for satirical purposes. It's the mixed format that was the problem. I don't think even Kermit could have been able to walk away as host from that.

Hence why the sudden shift in taking the show out of the theater the show had a direction and got better. Too much of the show wanted to be The Muppet Show, and too much of it didn't want to. And honestly, Jim wouldn't have done another The Muppet Show. That wasn't him. That's why he did JHH instead. SO if we have another Muppet TV Show, I hope it isn't just a rehash of TMS.

 

[dwayne1115]

Kermit may not have been the host but he did do some MC work when Clifford was doing something else. I also think that Kermit not being the host gave him more of a chance to do other skits and things. He also seemed more like a Star and the show's hero to me. Talking to the gust stars and what not. My only issue with Kermit on the show is his relationship with Piggy is no where to be seen. In fact I don't think that any of Frank's Muppets talked to Kermit much at all during the show.

 

[Misskermie]

NOT ENOUGH MISS PIGGY! TOO MUCH SPAMELA!!!

 

[Drtooth]

NOT ENOUGH MISS PIGGY! TOO MUCH SPAMELA!!!

How about TOO MUCH not enough Frank Oz?

Purists love to complain about how his characters got recast, but let's face it... Eric was a BOON to fan kind. Frank's almost passionless phoned in performance in MFS for example (to be fair, the only ones having fun in that film were Dave, Bill, and Brian). That's why, since VMX, we've seen Fozzie and Piggy in the capacity that they should have been. In fact, if anything, we're losing new characters. Kevin's too busy with his various Sesame duties (there goes Clifford), Brian's with Henson now (Sal and VanNeuter), not to mention that some of the new puppeteers are performing classic characters that were thought long gone. Though I don't expect Pepe to go anywhere anytime soon. He's still all over merchandising and promotional stuff. One stunted appearance in a movie isn't the future of the character. Not to mention, it's essentially one of Bill's signature characters.

But MT HAD to create new characters to fill the void left by Jim and Richard's passing, and Frank's foot out the door. Even in JHH, Frank's characters weren't as prevalent. That had new characters filling that void too, but most of them, we never saw again.

But as I always say, we lost a LOT of characters after MT as well. And luckily, they're all the worst characters. Spamella last appeared in a comic book, Andy and Randy only came back for a Cat Cora thing... It is a shame we lost Seymour, but I can't figure out where he'd fit in with the Muppets.