"The Muppets" isn't the Muppets

[Reevz1977]

First off...any haters or overly sensitive people please don't continue to read. The last thing I want to do is offend, hand on heart! And, can I also state for the record that I loved "The Muppets"...

NOW...

I don't know if any one else has experienced this, and I personally find it rather baffling, but I really haven't met anyone else who enjoyed "The Muppets" outside of fellow fans. Now normally I'd write this off as "well they just don't like the Muppets" but that would actually be wrong. A number of these people, whilst not being "fanatics", are very fond of the Muppets. Take my brother for instance, he was a big fan as we grew up. He has bought my nephew many old-school Muppet DVD's which he still enjoys but, unlike me, he really moved on from the Muppets as he aged. Last week, after me really insisting he watch the movie, rented it and his exact words were "I hated it!!!". My best friend, a guy who shares the exact same (read: warped) sense of humour as me watched it and said "what happened to the Muppets". These sadly aren't just two isolated reviews. Every other person who knows I love the Muppets has come to me and said the same thing. It really got me thinking about something that may be a tad controversial...

Could it possible be, because many of us have followed every single Muppet production, publication, viral-video etc etc over the years that we, the fanatics, have perhaps forgotten who the Muppets are???

Now I know, I know, for gods sake put the pitchforks down, that makes little or no sense but the people who I am talking about were fans of TMS and the three Jim Henson movies and have since "grown up*". Other than maybe the Muppet Christmas Carol and at a push Treasure Island, I don't think any of these friends/family/colleagues would have been aware of other Muppet productions since the death of Jim Henson. Could it be because we "the fanatics" have closely followed and accepted (to an extent ) newer Muppet productions that we have actually forgotten the Muppets that people remember? It's just a thought...and perhaps a crazy one at that, but the thing that people keep saying to me about the movie is "it just wasn't the Muppets".

Now I've said...alot...that I really struggled with Fozzie. Gonzo also was very muted, not helped by his lack of screen time, but to me every other character seemed right on the money...until I got thinking.

Once I stopped and thought about the characters, without the post-jim productions, the characters really are...different. Certain dynamics have changed. Personality traits that were once an element of a character have BECOME the character. Before I get the rants from people who think that I am being disrespectful about the Muppets, I challenge you to do the same. Take away everything you know about the characters in the interim years and I suspect a great deal of you will see what I mean and why, when people have seen the movie and claimed "it just wasn't the Muppets" they may actually be right.

Food for thought and a topic for discussion? Now let me duck behind this parapet!!!

*I use that term VERY loosely!!!

 

[Drtooth]

I've said it before...

This happens to EVERY single property out there. Even if you try hard to make everything the same, you'll wind up making everything different. Things DO indeed change at a certain point... even if the series is still on and has never went away.


In other words... The Simpsons.

You could even say the same thing about Sesame Street characters.

But what gets me is this... "The Muppets" wasn't The Muppets? Then who the heck did we get in the past 3 theatrical movies? Less of their signature personality traits were present in those films. Kermit was bland and forgettable in MFS. Sure we had a frog that looked like Kermit, sounded like Kermit, and could be called Kermit... but he seemed so disconnected from EVERYTHING that happened in the movie, especially Piggy. Say what you will about sad Kermit in TM, at least he was able to emote, and didn't come off as lobotomized. Same deal with Piggy. Sure, she had that Flanderized "diva-ish" moments, and a t-shirt catch phrase "Kissy Kissy" moment... but she was barely there the rest of the film.

Then you look at the book films... Sure, undoubtedly Piggy and Kermit were there (MCC has some great scenes of them as a couple)... but Frank started to make Fozzie an idiot in MTI (Piggy seemed to have suffered a small I.Q. drop in that film as well, just not as severe), That's when Gonzo's weirdness started to Steve Martin away (transitioning to something new). And most of the other characters vanished.

But to answer the question about comparisons between the first films and the last.... well, that's a lot like comparing Bob Clampett's Daffy Duck to the ones they made just before Termite Terrace closed down. And yes, I know people who hate everything Chuck Jones did to Bugs and Daffy and I refuse to speak to them. There is a difference in character. 30 years worth of difference. Heck, even 20 something years of difference. 20 years and several different performers. Performers who get the characters, but lack a small subtlety that came with those characters being personal.

But above all, the movie's plot. The biggest (and most ridiculous) gripe was depressed Kermit and the actual level of Woody Allen-esque maturity and intelligence given to the Kermit/Piggy dynamic.

Now, given the context of the film, Kermit broke up with his soul mate after a humongous blow up, and lost all his friends soon after. Not even keeping in touch with them. He took it very hard and stopped believing in himself. I'd hate to see the person who's ecstatic after that. Not to mention... and I've been over this many a time... I HATE Hi-Yah, fat Joke Kermit and Piggy relationship. That's what people think they want to see, but that one note joke went with the TV show's ending. Sure, they used it in Muppet babies, but NO WHERE else. Never in the other movies, where the relationship was always given the beauty and respect. There was that amnesiac Kermit in MTM that insulted Piggy, but the kung fu chop was a plot device.

If anything, the Kermit and Piggy bond is strong in this film as it ever has been. Much better than every annoying talk show appearance they had to force that joke upon.

I will agree to Gonzo, but only because he wasn't in the film as long as he could have been, and was used as a plot device that kept him out of the second half of the film.

The bottom line... a movie that's made almost 30 years after a certain other film IS going to be different and IS going to not feel the same no matter what or who is involved. It's natural. Fully natural. Anyone who thought the Star Wars prequels would be just as good as the others were kidding themselves.

 

[Borples]

Interesting. Everyone I know who saw the movie--most of who were casual Muppet fans--loved it. Given the moderate box office success and the positive reception from critics, I would say that your experience isn't indicative of how the movie was received in general.

Anyway, like Dr. Tooth said, everything changes. Characters change, for better or worse. People change. I mean, look at human actors. If you're a fan of, say, Bill Murray movies of the 80s, and you go to watch a current Murray movie, you're not gonna get the same experience. People grow, Muppets grow (or shrink)...it's the way it is. It's even the way it should be. With the Muppets specifically, given that so many performers and writers have passed on or retired and been replaced, you can't possibly expect that they would be the exact same as they were 30 years ago. We can nitpick at this or that, but there doesn't seem to be much sense in trying to freeze them in a time that has long since gone by.

And, in general, there were things I wasn't crazy about in the movie, but for the most part, I think the Muppets were plenty Muppety.

 

[Drtooth]

Interesting. Everyone I know who saw the movie--most of who were casual Muppet fans--loved it. Given the moderate box office success and the positive reception from critics, I would say that your experience isn't indicative of how the movie was received in general.

I think it's possibly the home theater phenom that hurts films. I saw Disney's Tarzan on television and was less than impressed.

Anyway, like Dr. Tooth said, everything changes. Characters change, for better or worse. People change. I mean, look at human actors. If you're a fan of, say, Bill Murray movies of the 80s, and you go to watch a current Murray movie, you're not gonna get the same experience. People grow, Muppets grow (or shrink)...it's the way it is. It's even the way it should be. With the Muppets specifically, given that so many performers and writers have passed on or retired and been replaced, you can't possibly expect that they would be the exact same as they were 30 years ago. We can nitpick at this or that, but there doesn't seem to be much sense in trying to freeze them in a time that has long since gone by.

You CANNOT freeze anything in time. The harder you try, the harder you'll fail. You can try to recapture things, but there's too many pieces of a puzzle.

Another example... look at Ren and Stimpy. The earliest episodes are brilliant, even the disturbingness of the episodes is funny. But the episodes they made when they fired John K were disturbing on an unfunny level. Ren was prone to breakdowns in every episode, and they were just jarring with none of the weirdness of Space Madness or Stimpy's Fan Club. Not to mention how hard they tried to make jokes that made NO sense that fell flat, and didn't even resemble the John K episodes. Then, Adult Cartoon party came out, and John was back... only the characters were different, the jokes weren't as funny... they were better than the Games episodes, but something was lost essentially. I don't think it was half as dire as that was with the Muppet film, but even the same creative team changes.

 

[Cindy]

Interesting. Everyone I know who saw the movie--most of who were casual Muppet fans--loved it. Given the moderate box office success and the positive reception from critics, I would say that your experience isn't indicative of how the movie was received in general.

I agree with Borples, as this was also the case in our circle of friends. Everyone from casual fans to those who just saw the movie for the kid's sake really enjoyed the movie. I haven't found anyone who had the kind of reaction that Reevz1977 experienced. However, here's my take...

Have you ever returned to your childhood home or maybe a grandparent's home as an adult and noticed how things are the same, yet different? The sentimental feelings are there and yet suddenly the house or your old room seems so small? Or maybe you find a favorite childhood toy or show and suddenly you wonder what on earth was so fascinating about it in the first place?

For those that grew up on The Muppet Show or Muppet Babies probably feel the same way when they see the Muppets of today. (I'm not talking about fans like us, just the average Joe.) They long for the Muppets of long ago, the ones they grew up with. Things are kind of the same but not quite so it's not gratifying or enjoyable, they just spend their time romanticizing about the way things used to be.

This doesn't happen for most of us - as Muppet fans - because we didn't have that separation. It's like we never grew up from the Muppets, they grew with us. Not to say we're never nostalgic, we often are. But we're often more accepting of the changes and the various nuances that the average Joe might not be.

So yes, the Muppets are not the 1970's Muppet Show Muppets, I don't think anyone is arguing that one. But I don't think the question those type of people Reevz1977 described should be asking is "what happened to the Muppets", but rather "what happened to me?"

 

[Reevz1977]

Drtooth/Borples, I wholeheartedly agree with many of your points. When I saw the movie I was amazed at how much heart it had and the level of innocence without being too sugary. And clearly, the box-office results show theres love for our favourite felt fellows. Like yourselves, I've been on the ride for the long haul and have seen and taken on bored the changes to the characters. I've accepted Gonzo's change in craziness and love Steve's Kermit (or just "Kermit" as I prefer). I also have no problems with any of the new(er) performers and think (other than Fozzie in TM) Eric has done an astounding job with Fozzie and Piggy. And I have a HUGE amount of man-love and deep respect for Mr. Baretta!! My point was, and it was essentially sold as, that "The Muppets" was a return to the old school Muppets, and to those who were only conscious of the old-school Muppets and have had little exposure to the characters since, they really noticed the change.

I think perhaps that, here in the UK especially, exposure to the Muppets has been fairly limited. As fans, we have had to find ways of seeing TV specials like Letters to Santa, AVMMCM when they were originally released in the US. When they finally aired here it came without any fanfare or promotion. So for the regular UK casual fan, the Muppets have been MIA for a long time. I lost count of how many interviews over here starting with "so you guys haven't been around for 12 years...". Heck, we didn't even have a website available to us until recently, instead we were redirected to the generic Disney site. Obviously the UK MCers on here will have legally sourced the specials, found workarounds to Muppets.com and bought the region 1 dvd's etc etc.

So, the statement "it just wasn't the Muppets" comes from perhaps a slightly different place here. Obviously ALOT of brits went to see the movie at the flicks and the critics reviews were amazingly positive. I'm just talking about my experience and asking whether anyone else had had the same experience with people they knew. There is always the chance that I oversold the movie to many. After expecting something horrendous after some of the recent productions and having to hide my embarrassment and defend the Muppets if anyone saw any of these lesser productions, I was over the moon* with "The Muppets" and encouraged everyone I knew to see it, even offering up the cash for them to go. I guaranteed if they liked the Muppets, they'd love "The Muppets" and sadly that, for me, has not been the reaction I've received.

That said, alot of people whom I've spoken to and heard in interviews said that the second the Muppet Show opening came on, they had chills. One friend even said he welled-up, thinking about himself as a kid watching the show. That to me, was blooming nice to hear!

*Understatement of the century

 

[Reevz1977]

...the Muppets are not the 1970's Muppet Show Muppets, I don't think anyone is arguing that one. But I don't think the question those type of people Reevz1977 described should be asking is "what happened to the Muppets", but rather "what happened to me?"

I like that sentiment Cindy, I like that a lot!

And clearly from these responses, my experience isn't indicative of others! That is GREAT to hear...and now I can simply reply "you're wrong!"

 

[Pinkflower7783]

All I'm gonna say is is time doesn't stand still...things change. You can't keep The Muppets frozen in the 1970's. You have to develop their personalities even into the modern era. If Jim was alive you better believe he wouldn't have kept the Muppets frozen in the 1970s-1980s. Because he kept them up to date during that particular time when he was alive.

 

[Pinkflower7783]

I mean no The Muppets aren't the Muppets that maybe we grew up with but since the recent film came out I feel like for the first time that the life in them or that spark that was lost for so long was finally brought back.

I think it's funny how as being adults you see life in a totally different way.

 

[Drtooth]

All I'm gonna say is is time doesn't stand still...things change. You can't keep The Muppets frozen in the 1970's. You have to develop their personalities even into the modern era. If Jim was alive you better believe he wouldn't have kept the Muppets frozen in the 1970s-1980s. Because he kept them up to date during that particular time when he was alive.

You can't even keep characters frozen in their own show while the show's on the air. It's impossible to do so no matter how you try. Sometimes this means characters get more depth, sometimes it means characters lose depth. I have that complete Powerpuff Girls set, and at the 5th season mark, the Mayor went from being a befuddled, old fashioned, not too bright goofball to being a complete pickle obsessed drooling idiot until the dreadful "Toast of the Town" episode where he's been reduced to I.Q. of a petulant baby.

If there's something essentially missing from The Muppets, it's something that's been missing for years. But that's the thing with purism. It's like how Star Trek purists whined about the J.J. Abrams film when out of 10 films before then, there were like 3 good ones. Even though the rest of the world LOVED the new Star Trek film. And that's not even counting the fact they couldn't get something essential that was lost when the show was cancelled too early to begin with with the original movies.