Frank Oz worked on a new Muppet movie script

[beaker]

Amen. Amen, amen, amen.

I don't think it's just ADHD, though... the Muppets have always been frenetic and chaotic: it's a fundamental part of their charm. But energy and chaos have to be anchored in skill and purpose; when speed and randomness are used to cover up something that doesn't really work on its own, they become obnoxious.

It's a little bit like the ubiquitous use of shaky cam (hand-held camera) in modern films. Shaky cam has its uses when deployed sparingly and purposefully. (The one scene in Rushmore where the camera follows Bill Murray as he disrupts some kids' basketball game while talking on his cellphone is an example of skillful use of this technique.) But it is vastly overused these days to create a cheap, ersatz feeling of immediacy. "Whoa, whoa, whoa! See how the camera is shaking! It's like you're really there!" It's a sign of laziness and a sign of lack of knowledge of movie-craft.

Anyway, not all modern films are terrible. In kids films there is, of course, Pixar, that towering giant of modern achievement, which made gorgeous, perfect / nearly-perfect films right up until the Cars movies. And there's Pixar's chief inspiration, Studio Ghibli (in Japan), headed by Hayao Miyazaki, creator of Spirited Away, My Neighbor Totoro, Kiki's Delivery Service, and Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind to name only a smattering of my favorite of his films.

I do think we have a problem in America with our attitude toward children. We want everything to be sanitized of any speck of danger before we show it our precious little ones, then we ourselves are so bored by the material that we demand tons of sly references to us to get us through the agonizing experience of watching what we've demanded. Pixar and Studio Ghibli, which have a much deeper respect for the value and complexity of childhood experiences, stand virtually alone.

Once again, I agree with every word. I just saw the most amazing film of the year, which Im sure will be up for a few oscars. It's called "The Descendents" starring George Clooney. Like the original Muppet film, Alien, The Shining, Silence of the Lambs, etc its one of those absolutely perfect films in my view. Sadly hardly anyone will see it since its a "quieter qausi-indie" adult dramedy release. Something began to really bug me when the advent of 21st century films happened. Look at Ridley Scott. He went from being the visionary director(who knew lighting, pacing, sets, cinematography/dp choices, etc) of Alien and Blade Runner to making some of the choppiest bad movies of the 2000's. Gladiator was fum, but it ushered in that "look" and style Ive come to hate. And he turned the Hannibal Lecter franchise into a goofy trainwreck with Hannibal. Just look at any pg-13 summer action film from the last decade...nothing but blurry badly edited films.

And you're right...we want things to be squeaky clean for kids(remember 80's kids films that had every swear word imaginable but had HEART) Sure, Goonies has R rated like swearing, as did MANY of the mid 80's kids movies back then. BUT...again they had heart. Most kids films today, including virtually all cgi heavy cartoon/live action hybrid/fantasy films are utter garbage in my view. The last live action kids film I thought was a masterstroke of genius and worked on every level for me was probably Toys with Robin Williams. I feel utter skin crawling revulsion when I see trailers for films like Shrek, Puss n Boots, Smurfs, Garfield, Chipmunks, Hop, G-Force, Planet 51, etc. I'd never take my kids to see most of this stuff. Theyve somehow managed to zap all the splendor and joy out of books I grew up as well(Cloudy With A Chance of Meatballs, Dr Seuss, etc)

I love that scene in Rushmore, but then again thats why Im a huge fan of more independent and foreign cinema.

The Transformers series represents perhaps the quintessential example of what is wrong with not just contemporary America, but loud summer action films in general. Sure there was cheesey action films in the 80s, and certainly in the 90s...bit I never felt sickened to the point of wanting to walk out from them.

It's funny how Disney, thanks to Lasseter's insistence, finally embraced Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli. The first Disney/Ghibli release, Spirited Away in 2002, I considered his best film...yet Disney barely marketed it or released it in that many theaters. I dont know what theyre problem was, but it took til Ponyo for them to finally put some muscle into marketing(sadly I found the film a bit banal but still charming) Pixar for the most part relishes in good pacing and letting things breathe(unlike Dreamworks, Fox Animation, etc) Heck Wall E was at times a bit too ambient. Also Rango I feel is the most underrated family film of the last few years

 

[Drtooth]

The Transformers series represents perhaps the quintessential example of what is wrong with not just contemporary America, but loud summer action films in general. Sure there was cheesey action films in the 80s, and certainly in the 90s...bit I never felt sickened to the point of wanting to walk out from them.

Michael Bay is basically Uwe Boll with a better agent. He makes terrible films no one really likes and he thinks he's great for it. The difference is major studios release Bay's films. People just randomly see them. I give them credit for using the original cartoon voice cast... that's it. They keep making them people keep seeing them, and they all keep coming out unhappy with them. Say what you will about this film, people at least came out happy for the most part. it's like WHY do they keep going to Transformers movies if they keep sucking and have a history of sucking? Oh yeah, they're all playing Black Ops all day. That's the fan base they want. people that didn't really grow up with the toys and want to see something as shallow as their shooty shooty blowy uppy video games.

This film, whatever you make of it, we can agree it's a love letter to the Muppets and the fandom... Transformers are Michael Bay's love letter to himself. if it wasn't for his ego, he probably wouldn't have any joy making them either.

 

[beaker]

These aspects of the movie were like someone reproducing the mannerisms of the earlier films without understanding the reason for them. The Muppets have always broken the fourth wall, because the idea was that they were actors and producers and technicians: TMM was the Muppets making a movie about trying to break in to the movies. They were like the many comedians who go to Hollywood: their chief source for material was their own lives and the people they knew.

One of the (many) problems with the new film is how lazy the meta references are (ie, fourth-wall breaking), and how they're used to apologize for the flimsiness of the story. In The Muppets, it's not that the required linearity of making a story is disrupted by how mad-cap and fundamentally uncontrollable the Muppets are... it's that the movie is threatened by how underwhelming and half-baked the story itself is.

The chief example is how the story of picking up the Muppet diaspora is ended by a time-saving move to a montage. Why? Because the idea they started with turned out to be so boring they couldn't stick with it. Do you remember the original Muppet road trip scene? Do you remember the Movin' Right Along song? OF COURSE YOU DO. IT'S ONE OF THE BEST PARTS OF MUPPET HISTORY. If you're going to yank on our heartstrings by referencing it and recreating it, don't confess moments later that you have NOTHING to add to it and abandon ship in the cheapest manner possible.

Yes: the new filmmakers recreate a bunch of the mannerisms of the older films. They saw, but they did not understand.

BRILLIANT! Yeah in retrospect it truly does feel like a cheap imitation. I'm so glad you mentioned Movin Right Along, as I find it one of the most important and seminal moments in the 60 years of Muppet history.

I respect Segel, Stohler, Bobbins, etc. The Muppets would be languishing in 2004-era obscurity right now. But...why did they keep saying they were not going to make a modern film, and wanted to bring it back to the "classic feel of the first films". This film rarely has anything that feels truly classic. That montage scene, while in a way its kind of fun, is yet another stark example of the flippantly cheap disposable way we are whipped through this current enterprise. Youre correct, if they really wanted to tug at our nostalgic heartstrings and honour the past, why not have an original song sung on a cross country road trip? Not the typical cheap "hey, remember the 80s?" Family Guy type gag.

Your words are like poetry man...I really would love to read a full review from you, or any full length articles or blogs.

 

[beaker]

Epictetus, could you please stop slamming the new movie and insulting those of us who were actually pleased with it?

It's great for what it is and what was needed to bring the Muppets back to life and get them back on the path to public prominence.

If you actually read what he is saying, it's not a mere slam. It's a really well thought out, almost scholarly(IMHO) dissection of why the new film may for some not feel as authentic as it is heralded as. At least compared to what made the originals great. I have been proselytizing this film to friends and strangers online like everyone else, but deep down I have felt the film felt off and I feel Epictetus has done a great job of meticulously getting to the heart of what that off feeling is about. He isn't simply nitpicking or giving a kind of blanket "it sucks" retort I feel.

 

[beaker]

The fact of the matter is, Frank Oz didn't have a new script in development... but a Frank Oz (and Jerry Juhl and Jim Henson) script that was announced by Disney to be put into production was shelved for the film we got. Several reasons for that include A) it was never quite finished, so I'm assuming the current Muppet team would have filled in the blanks and modernized it a bunch (and made it more Whizz Bang than this film ever could hope to be)... but then they had a perfectly good workable script anyway and B) say what you will about the movie, the getting the gang together only to realize the fans were always there, just sleeping concept WAS the right thing to do to relaunch the franchise under Disney.

While I'm sure Cheapest would have been a great movie, and By Toutatis, I wanna see that film made next, it's a pretty strange concept that wouldn't have worked in getting a foothold back into the public eye. This film needs a LOT of theater of the absurd to work. And as nonsequitor as some of the movie came off (especially the quick ending), this would have been considered too silly, even for The Muppets... a LOT of Monty Python-esque weirdness would ensue, and it would feel too darn gimmicky for its own good as a relaunch film. In fact, the title doesn't sound all that confident. It's a self deprecating wacky story with tons of potential, but we needed a much stronger solid concept to bring them back. Look how Muppet Oz almost sank Disney's use of the franchise.

I do definitely wanna see Frank do something for the Muppets someday. They're not dead to him (he returned as Grover in an AMAZING Sesame Street Skit), but any future interactions will be up to him.

Thats correct. I believe the film we got was the one that needed to be made for better or worse. It's just the way the wind blows. In 2009 at D23 they indeed smacked down the then heavily bizzed Segel film to sell us on the dream Henson project "Cheapest Muppet Movie". But yes, that may have definitely fallen like a dud with the public at large...and the entire muppet future would be like Beau mopping up the abandoned muppet theater mumbling to himself. We would be right back to a post MFS era. "Now what?" would be the question. Well now the sky is the limit.

So again, while I greatly agree with Epictetus(with the caveat that the film does have a true emotional whallop in parts I feel...particularly the opening monologue which is straight up genius, to the rainbow connection production) I also recognize that they needed to lay the groundwork with this.

Id love to see a more evenly paced, indie film like Muppet film next.

Michael Bay is basically Uwe Boll with a better agent. He makes terrible films no one really likes and he thinks he's great for it. The difference is major studios release Bay's films. People just randomly see them. I give them credit for using the original cartoon voice cast... that's it. They keep making them people keep seeing them, and they all keep coming out unhappy with them. Say what you will about this film, people at least came out happy for the most part. it's like WHY do they keep going to Transformers movies if they keep sucking and have a history of sucking? Oh yeah, they're all playing Black Ops all day. That's the fan base they want. people that didn't really grow up with the toys and want to see something as shallow as their shooty shooty blowy uppy video games.

This film, whatever you make of it, we can agree it's a love letter to the Muppets and the fandom... Transformers are Michael Bay's love letter to himself. if it wasn't for his ego, he probably wouldn't have any joy making them either.

Total agreement. The new muppet film is as sincere as a heartfelt love letter by Segel and his hand picked team as they could muster.

The "cool retro" nostalgia of the G1 Transformers from the early internet days til mid 2000's was single handedly destroyed by Michael Bay. Transformers from Spielberg/Bay is as far from a love letter as it gets.

But...is trying to recreate the past good? Could a new muppet film faithfully get us back to TMM and TMTM? Look at Super 8. I ultimately feel it failed capturing late 70s and early 80s spielberg with too many cliches and the typical alien cgi weve become accustomed to seeing. At least for most the movie, M night got a lot right about signs and the aliens in them

 

[Drtooth]

BRILLIANT! Yeah in retrospect it truly does feel like a cheap imitation. I'm so glad you mentioned Movin Right Along, as I find it one of the most important and seminal moments in the 60 years of Muppet history.

I respect Segel, Stohler, Bobbins, etc. The Muppets would be languishing in 2004-era obscurity right now. But...why did they keep saying they were not going to make a modern film, and wanted to bring it back to the "classic feel of the first films". This film rarely has anything that feels truly classic. That montage scene, while in a way its kind of fun, is yet another stark example of the flippantly cheap disposable way we are whipped through this current enterprise. Youre correct, if they really wanted to tug at our nostalgic heartstrings and honour the past, why not have an original song sung on a cross country road trip? Not the typical cheap "hey, remember the 80s?" Family Guy type gag.

That montage seemed like an unfortunate necessity... That's what they should have done... sung during it, and cut from place to place while singing it each character adding a line. It seems the Rowlf segment was almost a backhand of HAVING to do a montage. Still, it all points to the same thing I've been saying... seems like a lot of concepts had to be chopped up to fit the enforced running time. I'm almost disappointed we didn't get to see more of Sam as an obvious Fox Pundit parody.

The more I think about it, I wonder if the pacing and rushing is even the fault of the movie makers, or if the Muppet Studios people pushed them into doing certain things a certain way. I remember reading My Morning Jacket wrote several songs of which the Electric Mayhem were to perform. They didn't even make it to the filming stage. The only evidence I have of that is VMX and MupOz... LTS had nice pacing... at least until the end. But I feel they should have done something different when they got to the North Pole. At that point it seemed that they desperately needed to reach the ending. I really don't think any of the writers or directors relished or enjoyed having to cut backstories and half some of the musical numbers. Like I said... I wanna see the director's cut. It probably has better flow. Maybe had this film been 2 hours instead of 90 minutes, it would have truly felt that way. The writers and directors certainly tried cramming in what they could, and in the end, we didn't get any huge lagging points, but it also went by too fast. Especially the ending. Does it ruin the film for me at all, though? No. I never expected it to be "classic" in those terms... just classic as in no retellings and flat Kermit barely in half the film.

Thats correct. I believe the film we got was the one that needed to be made for better or worse. It's just the way the wind blows. In 2009 at D23 they indeed smacked down the then heavily bizzed Segel film to sell us on the dream Henson project "Cheapest Muppet Movie". But yes, that may have definitely fallen like a dud with the public at large...and the entire muppet future would be like Beau mopping up the abandoned muppet theater mumbling to himself. We would be right back to a post MFS era. "Now what?" would be the question. Well now the sky is the limit.

So again, while I greatly agree with Epictetus(with the caveat that the film does have a true emotional whallop in parts I feel...particularly the opening monologue which is straight up genius, to the rainbow connection production) I also recognize that they needed to lay the groundwork with this.

Cheapest sounds like a great idea for another film, no question. But it's something for the older fans. I'm not saying kids are dumb or the film needs to talk down... but it could get way too weird way too fast. I like weird, and I'd have no problem... but it would be like showing someone under the age of 6 a Monty Python skit... and not even one of the famous ones... the ones written by 2 of the Pythons to mock the writing styles of another duo of Pythons. Something that's only explainable internally. Though I could see a very Bowfingerish situation where they find a celebrity and secretly film them reacting to stuff and cutting it together. Or maybe something like that episode of Darkwing Duck where he's writing a comic book and everyone starts adding their own things until it becomes a chaotic mess.

Launching the franchise on a classic retelling is right out... that would just lead to more classic retellings. And they wouldn't even be like MCC or MTI. I would say, track down the guy who wrote Muppet Snow White, though. He had a better handle on it than even Jerry did.

 

[beaker]

Dr Tooth, it sounds like its one of those things where we all are staring at the same painting but have different philosophical views on what it means...even tho we all kind of agree on the nuts and bolts.

Ive now had over a week to let the new film digest. I kind of want to keep this part private and away from most people...but the new movie kind of leaves me feeling weird. Its not that I think its a bad film like Oz or a letdown like MFS or KSY. In a way it mirrors VMX. In 2002 when it aired I wrote this long screed on here(Im sure its still searchable) where I wrote with great jubilation how this is everything we needed and the muppets are back. But now I cant even watch VMX. And notice how eerily similar the new film is to VMX. Theres even the nirvana thing in it. Bitterman reminds me of rashida jones character meets richman. I need to watch VMX again, but it eerily matches the new film in pacing/randomness/etc...just without the heart the new film has. One thing VMX has that got to me is the part about the world if things were different...that sort of strange timeline, because thats how my own life feels like. That things are a skewed timeline, like back to the future's 2 alternative 1985.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I need to watch VMX again

Trust me, you don't. Hehe.

 

[beaker]

Trust me, you don't. Hehe.

Well, would you agree that at least the theater scenes are pretty cool? I like seeing the Bossmen and other scenes when they are rehearsing. But yeah VMX is not one of my favorites.

There are Jim Henson productions I think are just beyond words for me. The original film and the Muppets Take Manhattan. Muppet Family Christmas, Muppet Vision 3d and especially Muppets @WDW.

This will reduce my hardcore Muppet cred to zero with people, and further isolate and marginilize me in the eyes of people here, but here goes

Im not a fan of a lot of the old stuff. I like Sam and Friends, I love The Muppet Show and the two pilots. But Frog Prince? Tinkerdee? Santa Claus switch? Boring. even the two John Denver specials Im "meh" on. I do love Emmet Otter, and some of Bremen.
Also I think Piggy looks ghastly and quite ugly in the 70's, especially the firs two seasons. I love Piggy's 80's look, perm and all. But when it comes to old old Muppets, Im picky. I love all the old commercials, I love everything they did on the Ed Sullivan show. I LOVE Land of Gorch. But those early 70's specials I think are kind of lame.

Also im probably the only person on here that doesnt care for GMC, MTI or MCC. I know, Im a horrible person. Sue me

 

[CensoredAlso]

Well, would you agree that at least the theater scenes are pretty cool?

Sorry I guess I'm one of those annoying purists, lol.

Also I think Piggy looks ghastly and quite ugly in the 70's, especially the firs two seasons.

You realize she was considered something of a sex symbol in the '70s? Granted that was probably after they retired the first season puppet, lol.

But when it comes to old old Muppets, Im picky

Well some of the things you mentioned were obviously early attempts and were going to be a bit creaky at times (Though The Frog Prince still moves me to this day, lol.).

But for me I feel like even the most creaky early Muppet productions are better than anything we got in the '90s.

Also im probably the only person on here that doesnt care for GMC, MTI or MCC. I know, Im a horrible person. Sue me

Lol, well I don't much care for MTI or MCC either. GMC I like a lot but I can also understand why it gets picked on, hehe.