Frank Oz worked on a new Muppet movie script

[Epictetus]

Well, like I said at the end of the day, I really enjoyed the movie and it's got a 98% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes (last time I looked anyway), so the movie is doing something right regardless if one guy likes it or not. But again, that's his opinion, though I do whole heartly disagree with it.

Yes, everything that is popular is good!

 

[JJandJanice]

Yes, everything that is popular is good!

Well...that's pretty much in the same boat as saying because YOU don't like it, it shouldn't be considered good overall, is it not?

Not to say that I always agree with Rotten Tomatoes, there have been a few movies I've rather enjoyed that have gotten low approval scores on that website. But still, a lot of people are enjoying the Muppets, sorry if you're not among them.

 

[Epictetus]

Well...that's pretty much in the same boat as saying because YOU don't like it, it shouldn't be considered good overall, is it not?

I didn't like it because I think it's bad. I've given arguments for why I think so. You are free, as an independent mind, to find those arguments persuasive or unpersuasive. That's the way life works.

Not to say that I always agree with Rotten Tomatoes, there have been a few movies I've rather enjoyed that have gotten low approval scores on that website. But still, a lot of people are enjoying the Muppets, sorry if you're not among them.

It seems kinda hypocritical to acknowledge that Rotten Tomatoes is no certain meter of quality, but to trot it out as ammunition for your argument since, this time, it suits you.

 

[beaker]

It's nice to read some discussion of the film from folks who know more about Muppets history and context. I had an extremely negative reaction to the new film and was, frankly (pun intended), relieved to find that Frank Oz and, apparently, some of the other folks from Henson studios, had criticisms of the script.

For me, the script felt like a shallow recreation of someone who had tremendous affection for, but not deep understanding of, the characters in the Muppets. The screen time devoted to the human characters was probably the worst part, as it was not sufficient (nor was the script resourceful enough) to make it anything more than an incredibly superficial cliché, but it was enough screen time to reduce the breadth of story allotted to the Muppets themselves considerably.

But for me, the saddest thing was just how few decent jokes there were. Great jokes are hard to write, obviously, and the Muppet show (like almost any show) has plenty of misses, too. The other Muppets films have ups and downs (Muppets Christmas Carol is a masterpiece, the product of skill, luck, and divine inspiration, while Treasure Island is a more mixed bag), but I've never seen an entire film so filled with wet sacks of dead-on-arrival attempts at humor. Most of the movie's meta jokes function mostly as preventative apologies for the script's half-assedness.

Whether Oz saw the final script or not, I'd be surprised if his lack of enthusiasm wasn't related to the utter lack of vitality of the characters themselves, something that - in my opinion - was certainly not resolved in the final script.

Epictetus, you'll find this strange to believe...and given I don't care what people think of my opinions, I will just say I agree with almost everything you said.

Now some might think "Cory, how can you say the movie is an amazing watershed moment yet agree with Epictetus". Well it's because it's a complex situation. On one hand I felt the movie hit some pretty deep resonating notes for me, particularly the opening scene and some of the recreation.

But as epictetus says, it feels like merely a recreation at times. It's hard for me to articulate, but the new film feels like an imitation...a really interesting one. One that has a lot of stark notes. But something feels empty, I dont know what it is. Ive wrestled with this...afterall, how can I question a film thats a 98% critical acclaim success and an audience hit? But something about the movie feels off.
I just felt like I was watching an interpretation of what a muppet movie might feel like, but perhaps not a wholly authentic one. I feel Letters to Santa is more like a true muppet film to me in tone, as much as thats filled with fantastical contrivences.

One thing is, this new film is CERTAINLY not a classic feeling movie ala the original. It feels like a very modern shot/edited film that wants to echo a classic time.

The emotional buttons both happy and mournful that the movie presents us are genuine...I just am left amiss. The film, other than my issues with the editing and lack of pepe/rizzo/robin/etc is a fine film and a PERFECT introduction to a new generation...it is a love letter.

But an authentic muppet film? I dont know...Im still wrestling with that. I feel like Muppets From Space feels more like a true muppet film as poorly wrangled as that ended up being.

 

[Drtooth]

I didn't like it because I think it's bad. I've given arguments for why I think so. You are free, as an independent mind, to find those arguments persuasive or unpersuasive. That's the way life works.

You see, it's that level of hypercritical elitism that annoyed the heck out of everyone who disagrees with you. Not so much what your saying, but how you're saying it.

It seems kinda hypocritical to acknowledge that Rotten Tomatoes is no certain meter of quality, but to trot it out as ammunition for your argument since, this time, it suits you.

That's a REALLY condescending attitude. It honestly is. I get your arguments for not liking the film, but all it comes down to is saying "I don't like the film, therefore it is bad, I have spoken, therefore I'm right." I understand your arguments, but it all amounts to "This is not my taste of humor, so the jokes MUST be bad" and "once someone makes a joke, it's never to be made again or it becomes a cliche."

Here's a Non-cliched movie concept... a purple banana with fish for eyes glues together a walrus with backwards kabuki music plays in the background. Certainly that hasn't been done. Cliches are cliches for a reason.

Over all, the only thing I would tend to agree with is the lack of depth on the part of some of the humans, but that's because scenes that HAD the depth were forced to be cut out. We don't know of the fight that sent Kermit and Piggy apart unless you read the novelization, nor the secret machinations of Tex Richman, who had the Muppets perform at a birthday party, yet couldn't laugh, causing a childhood trauma. That SHOULD have been in the movie, but wasn't because the cineplexes need more time in each movie run time to show the exact same Coke and Ford commercials that you see on television anyway. A good 10-20 minutes would have done wonders for the film.

My personal favorite is the assessment that you're right because you're in the minority. Critics like it, the fans like it, people who didn't care enough about the franchise to realize they've been around forever like it... in the end, what matters more? A majority of people who enjoy something for what it is, or a handful that hate the movie for what it isn't? Beaker's assessment makes sense. No matter how fancifully you word your arguments, it comes down to "I don't like it, therefore it's bad." Which we don't mind at all. But to add the "you're clearly wrong because I'm right because I just wrote an A+ college term paper of a post about it" is why everyone's kinda snotting at you.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I feel like Muppets From Space feels more like a true muppet film as poorly wrangled as that ended up being.

Now let's not get carried away! Lol

 

[Drtooth]

Unfortunately, the script had a wave of Muppet feeling that the director didn't see. I tend to like MFS, even with it's flaws (better than MCC for that matter), but it's hardly as Muppety as VMX or MTI were. Still, this new movie gave a solid script, solid direction, a solid vision, yet unfortunate choices in edits.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Unfortunately, the script had a wave of Muppet feeling that the director didn't see.

I'll be honest, I don't see it either.

But it's OK, agree to disagree.

 

[Drtooth]

Oh, I'm not disagreeing. MFS's BIG problem was the director, while the several smaller problems were the laboriousness of the script. It's enjoyable, I like it, but it lacked just so much. And I really disliked how Miss Piggy was used in that movie. They seemed to remember that she's a diva and does Karate, but little else. There's virtually no Kermit/Piggy interaction other than them both being there. Even MCC and MTI managed to have them as a couple. And I just don't get Animal's role in it at all other than merchandising potential. But we had some golden moments with Gonzo, not to mention the play between Jeff Tambor and Bobo. Along with Pepe and some of the other new characters, that made the film more enjoyable. But it was heavily lacking overall. It wasn't quite as passionless as MuppetOz, though that can also be because of the awkward chemistry between the Muppets and Ashanti... but some scenes they felt like they were zombies in... how come no one asked Frank his opinion on that? Seems he'd have some choice things to say.

Which, again, is why I can't say anything bad about The Muppets script, writing or directing. Editing, maybe... but that's kinda out of their hands. The writers and directors were simpatico, they welcomed any and all changed suggested by Muppet Studios team (how they handled the house situation in the movie is FAR better than just having him live in a mansion)... and honestly, yes... the story was better for their suggestions. Walter works better as the inexplicable brother of Gary than a ventriloquist figure like in the first draft... and gone are those odd references to Vince Vaughn and Sleepers or Sliders or Slippers or whatever that movie was. Swingers...

 

[Epictetus]

I understand your arguments...

No, you don't.