The Bible and Love and Christians

[RedPiggy]

Some Christians mistakenly think that if you're into the enviornment (trees, animals, etc), you're too preoccupied to care about people and help them.

Well, I've mostly heard the one about environmentalism is of the devil because you're "worshipping nature" or something. Sigh.

Some Christians mistakenly think that if you're into the enviornment (trees, animals, etc), you're too preoccupied to care about people and help them.

The funny thing is, they owe their existence to pollution (much as Godzilla owes its existence to nuclear radiation). Had some moron not dropped the stuff, they wouldn't exist.

But I DO know, IF Christ is real...then reading his story he resisted the Satanic rulers that sadly so many Christians support.

The thing is, Jesus lived under a government that makes ours look like angels in comparison. Zealots got mad at Him precisely because He was NOT what they wanted, which is what you (and I mean this nicely) want out of Him, some hardcore protester who sticks it to the Man. Jesus' message to His fellow occupied Jews was: don't rock the boat, idiots. They can practically nuke your butts and you WON'T survive. The religious leaders and His own followers wanted His message to become political, but He ALWAYS kept out of political affairs. He would oppose money controllers? Why did He befriend the Roman version of the IRS by accepting them as His followers? The ONLY time He whined about inappropriateness with money was at the Temple. He felt money-making in the House of God was bad. By not having the same rant against Roman tax collectors, you get the impression He viewed civil fundraising a necessary/practical/whatever issue.

Iran controls Iraq's interim government and is trying to sway the Kabul government. China now controls most the oil and mineral fields of Iraq and Afghanistan. America's leaders sold us out to Sharia law and communist countries. This is not a left or right issue.

The US, despite our wishing it, does NOT rule the world. By claiming we were sold out, it sounds like us owning those lands is better. I can sympathize with your position, of course, but the practical side of me says that our insistence that we micromanage everyone else's affairs is the REAL reason we're getting bitten in the behind. I'm glad I'm not president, because when China started doing their space program, or when countries go nuclear, MY reaction would be "cool, congrats". Now, you may find that blasphemous, but strategically speaking ... where has the attitude only WE should do the cool stuff gotten us so far?

I said it before... no one cares that downloading movies (legally or otherwise) is putting video rental stores out of business. No one cares that those idiotic eReaders are killing bookstores and publishing companies.

I'm not a very sympathetic capitalist. From my understanding of capitalism, the market drives whether or not you have a job. If you're a business too dumb to see which way the winds are blowing ... I fail to see why such a company deserves crap. What these people, who made their lives on something quickly going extinct, should do is offer electronic transfer services, etc. EXPLOIT the new media, not whine about it. There will always be people too poor or too ignorant of how to make electronic files themselves ... so profit off of it! *sorry, rant over, LOL*

But accusing people of fascism and satanism is over the top.

*nods* I know some very nice Luciferian Satanists.

 

[BornToWemble]

*nods* I know some very nice Luciferian Satanists.

I don't know any satanists, but I know there's at least one branch, from what I know of, that are basically hedonists. Not the occult things most people think when they think of satanism.

And I know some very nice fascists and nazis. In fact sometimes I wonder if one of the fascists I knew was one of the ones that got away. He was the grandson of a Luftwaffe pilot. The only reason I think we didn't hook up was because of my pedigree, and the part that was the deal breaker I later found out wasn't true. If I met him again, there would be heavy flirting on my part.

I see a lot of people saying in this thread not to judge christians by a vocal minority. But you can't do that to anyone. Not satanists, not fascists, not nazis- no one. That's what real tolerance is about. Some of my very best friends are nazis. Not all of them are violent, hateful, racist, homophobic anti-Semites. The only white surpremicist I knew...was Asian. You can never know what someone is about or what they believe just because they fall under one idealogical category.

Of course there are some that are just disgusting, but every group has those. And no one is devoid of good. Even in some of the really bad neo-nazi groups do their part to try to make the world a better place even if there are contrasting ideas on some or a lot of it. The same group picketing and shouting hate are probably also a group encouraging their members to donate Breast Cancer Research, even if it is just because of Klara Hitler, they're aware they're helping ALL women. Even if many goals and views are different, there's still more than you'd think that's the same.

 

[frogboy4]

Well this discussion has taken a surprising turn. I admire the idea of not judging a whole group on the actions of a few, but the Nazis have always held Aryan supremacy as a central tenet. That's the truth and there's no way around it. While there are many other things that party believed; one cannot separate that rather large fly from the ointment and remain a Nazi.

Most people i have met who claim Satanism as their religion do so for pure shock value even though there is a long history of this pagan belief that has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. In fact we do know that modern Christianity has lifted a lot of things from pagan religions. The most popular of these is the date of Christmas celebration.

Peoples is peoples. But people that claim Satanism or Nazism as a belief system are usually people craving attention.

 

[BornToWemble]

Well this discussion has taken a surprising turn. I admire the idea of not judging a whole group on the actions of a few, but the Nazis have always held Aryan supremacy as a central tenet. That's the truth and there's no way around it. While there are many other things that party believed; one cannot separate that rather large fly from the ointment and remain a Nazi.

Most people i have met who claim Satanism as their religion do so for pure shock value even though there is a long history of this pagan belief that has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. In fact we do know that modern Christianity has lifted a lot of things from pagan religions. The most popular of these is the date of Christmas celebration.

Peoples is peoples. But people that claim Satanism or Nazism as a belief system are usually people craving attention.

It has taken an interesting turn, but the master race isn't an exclusive Nazi idea. And I disagree that someone has to believe in the master race to be a National Socialist. One idea does not make up an entire ideology. Everyone has their own ideas of what National socialism is to them based on the core beliefs. I'll tell you right now there are national socialists of every group. Even then, the ones that believe in the master race don't necessarily hate other races.

Of course there are people who do it for shock value, but there are people who claim to be all sorts of things to shock people or to make people feel they're special. You can't really say that all people who are 'usually' do it for shock or attention. It's like saying the girls who claim they're bisexual usually do it to make guys like them.

Plus I also see a lot of national socialists absolutely badgered into admitting their views even if they're rather not say. It can be hard to hide a part of yourself, as much as you try to hide it from anyone, it's going to show. That's usually where I see a lot of them claiming it. Not a lot announce it to the world, that's dangerous. Extremely so. Most are pretty quiet about it.

 

[frogboy4]

It has taken an interesting turn, but the master race isn't an exclusive Nazi idea. And I disagree that someone has to believe in the master race to be a National Socialist. One idea does not make up an entire ideology. Everyone has their own ideas of what National socialism is to them based on the core beliefs. I'll tell you right now there are national socialists of every group. Even then, the ones that believe in the master race don't necessarily hate other races.

Of course there are people who do it for shock value, but there are people who claim to be all sorts of things to shock people or to make people feel they're special. You can't really say that all people who are 'usually' do it for shock or attention. It's like saying the girls who claim they're bisexual usually do it to make guys like them.

Plus I also see a lot of national socialists absolutely badgered into admitting their views even if they're rather not say. It can be hard to hide a part of yourself, as much as you try to hide it from anyone, it's going to show. That's usually where I see a lot of them claiming it. Not a lot announce it to the world, that's dangerous. Extremely so. Most are pretty quiet about it.

Of course i can say that those i have met "usually" (not always) follow things like Satanism and Nazism for shock value because it's my honest experience. There's nothing wrong with that statement.

Also, I didn't say that National Socialists are Aryan supremacists. I said Nazis are Aryan supremacists and that is true.

I know that you're new to these forums. Welcome! It should be noted that this is a rare discussion for Muppet Central so careful consideration should be taken to read and digest others' posts before responding. Otherwise the moderators will likely shut this thread down. Thanks.

 

[BornToWemble]

Of course i can say that those i have met "usually" (not always) follow things like Satanism and Nazism for shock value because it's my honest experience. There's nothing wrong with that statement.

Also, I didn't say that National Socialists are Aryan supremacists. I said Nazis are Aryan supremacists and that is true.

I know that you're new to these forums. Welcome! It should be noted that this is a rare discussion for Muppet Central so careful consideration should be taken to read and digest others' posts before responding. Otherwise the moderators will likely shut this thread down. Thanks.

All I'm saying is that I don't think it fair of beaker to exclude some groups. I don't like the mentally of how we all need to love each other and tolerate each other yet some are excluded and spit on. I don't like sweeping generalizations despite any one person's experience.

Nazi is short for National Socialist. They're the same thing. And I said that is not true for every Nazi and an ideology is made up of more than one belief.

I always take as much care as I can to do that, but I think others should do the same. I see a lot of that not happening in threads and conversations like this, from new and old members.

 

[frogboy4]

All I'm saying is that I don't think it fair of beaker to exclude some groups. I don't like the mentally of how we all need to love each other and tolerate each other yet some are excluded and spit on. I don't like sweeping generalizations despite any one person's experience.

Nazi is short for National Socialist. They're the same thing. And I said that is not true for every Nazi and an ideology is made up of more than one belief.

I always take as much care as I can to do that, but I think others should do the same. I see a lot of that not happening in threads and conversations like this, from new and old members.

Nazism may be one and the same as National Socialism, but that particular moniker has become something else entirely. I believe that's where the separation lies that you have been addressing. Both are rather creepy, but I've always seen Nazism as the fringe of National Socialism.

However, it is absurd to state that a personal view of race supremacy doesn't translate into bigotry of others or do them harm. And what is the criteria for such supremacy? What's the yard stick? Every race, culture and individual has their own strengths and weaknesses. This work by Seuss and Jones illustrates my view.

Not tolerating intolerance is not intolerance. I'm at Muppet Central because I believe in the work and spirit of Jim Henson and the idea woven into all of his work. The beautiful truth that we are all one world of silly creatures interdependent on one another for not just survival, but growth as well. There's nothing in the notions of race supremacy or National Socialism to really fit that mold. That's probably why you're getting some opposition here in the very place where we honor the work of this amazing man.

 

[Drtooth]

All I'm saying is that I don't think it fair of beaker to exclude some groups. I don't like the mentally of how we all need to love each other and tolerate each other yet some are excluded and spit on. I don't like sweeping generalizations despite any one person's experience.

That's all well and good, but his main point is we should all band together and just demand the US get the heck out of the Middle East. There's too many unsolvable problems with that place, and if it's oil or just some idiotic ploy to reassert our dominance in the world, it's not worth it. Honestly, we're not even getting those. Our world standing has never been weaker and oil's never been higher.

We're seeing SOME parties co-operating with the Occupy Wall Street group. I mean, they ARE angry about the same thing, but they just want polar opposites for solutions. And it's that kind of disorganization that the people they're going after want. We're getting to the point where a certain news network actually went on rants vilifying the poor and canonizing the rich. Oh NOES! We can afford fridges to put our crappy food in. Why does anyone listen to that?

As for the wars.. NO ONE likes them, and they only pretended to like it because of the almost McCarthy era like witch hunt they had for anyone who didn't agree with their politics. Now it turns out no one likes the war... the difference is that the person in charge isn't a media sweetheart to the loudest, nastiest voices. The only people still on board are fringe kookoo groups and war profiteers. And I suspect the wealthy that love to see the poor get killed while they're in their hot tubs eating caviar.

I've said it before... we shoulda just let Russia have Afghanistan.

 

[CensoredAlso]

There's nothing in the notions of race supremacy or National Socialism to really fit that mold. That's probably why you're getting some opposition here in the very place where we honor the work of this amazing man.

The idea that the Nazis were just misunderstood is always going to get opposition from me.

 

[beaker]

Never thought I'd see a defense of Nazism and Fascism here on a Muppet forum

The Nazis stole their symbol from Tibet, stole the Aryan master race trope from Blavatsky who in turn reappropriated it from ancient Hindu lore("Aryan" is a mis-appropriation of Hindu concepts, nothing to do with whitey)

I just can't defend any system that commits mass murder. Be it Sudan and China murdering 400,000+ in Darfur. Be it the communists mass murder in Russia, China, Southeast Asia, etc. Or even America/EU and its endless slaughter of innocent Muslims(even if 9/11 was done by some evil Muslims, doesnt give the US the right to invade country after country)

But Im trying to say that yes, we should be tolerant of all people...just, the GOP tripled their budget to 1.5 million dollars to uphold Defense of Marriage Act.

Though I am curious, what basic tenets of Nazism or Fascism(and in a way, I guess Japan could fit under there as well as Italy) are misunderstood or worth looking into?
what part of the love-kindness-friendship for humanity spectrum does it fall into?

Hey, I even take some issue with Buddhism...particularly pre China tibet where the rulers were doing some pretty terrible things. But to me Nazism. Communism, Capitalism...any governing system that creates an industry of mass murder I can't support. to me Obama bush Laden is just a figurehead, puppets dangled in front of people to exact extreme emotions and polarization. And we all know the tricks these tricksters behind the mass media have worked wonders in getting everyone to fight(as we'll see next year again with the 2012 presidential race)

Jamie has a point tho...if say, a group is committed to wiping you out(westboro, aryan nations, Islamic jihadists, etc) how can one support that?