The Bible and Love and Christians

[RedPiggy]

Why do people keep trying to please God? Stop trying and actually let him help you out.

I definitely accept that it seems to some people that good works is like "sucking up". However, there IS another perspective. It seems that "faith" can be interpreted as "just slap Jesus' name on your corn flakes and you're gonna win a prize". For people who consider Christianity more of a verb than an adjective, when people go on and on (and on and on) about "faith", it comes off like an ad promoting a brand name.

That is not fair, I concede. Both sides (and I suggest this is a psychological difference that cannot be easily brought together) see the other as fundamentally flawed.

This is how I deal with the impasse: I do what I feel is right (most of the time ... or I try to, anyway, LOL), then if someone asks what motivates me to do that, I offer not only my theological reasons, but any other reasons (legal, social, biological, etc). Then I drop it. People are free to either join in my worldview completely, ignore it completely, or tweak it to fit their needs. I feel that is how Jesus ran His ministry, more or less, so that is what I do. I find aggressive sales tactics don't work on the kinds of people who read stuff like Consumer Reports or the comments below a product on a website.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I find aggressive sales tactics don't work

Jesus sold his message by having supper with outcasts. I think that says it all right there.

 

[RedPiggy]

*nods*

 

[frogboy4]

Obviously, my plea is falling on deaf ears. Frogboy, obviously you think that you're fine now and you don't sin and that you don't need a savior. That's a nice thought but it's a lie. You may believe that now but someday you'll have to answer for that. You obvioulsy disagree with me and won't accept God's love. Therefore, there really is no more point to me actually posting in this thread. You think that I'm being judgemental and probably even a bigot. That's fine. Jesus said that the world will hate me but I must persevere. Also, my rights are being attacked and Christians are being silenced. But now, while I still have these rights I will stand up for them. Once Christians begin to be persecuted in America, there will be a movement to step up and fight back. And I will gladly suffer for the name of Christ. Honestly, I just hope somebody can reach you and I hope that I can reach out to others more.

@Drtooth: My views won't evolve, at least not the way you think they will. I will always love my savior and I will always reach out and tell everyone I know about him. He died for me, and the least I can do is live like he did and spread his good news to all who listen. I AM NOT ASHAMED OF THE GOSPEL! I will shout it from the rooftops. Yet, here, my message is not being heard. So, there's no reason to continue this, obviously.

@Heralde: Is that what the bible says? I look at grace like a gift. God gave his only so to die as a gift. He's offering this gift to EVERYONE. Now, it's just our job to decide whether we take that gift or now. Now, in some cases, people don't accept the gifts given to them. such is also the case with God's grace. Is it the fault of the giver if the gift is not accepted? Of course not! Just think about it.

I know that my replies are obviously going to offend some of you and are contreversial but this is the truth and I believe it's my job to speak the truth! I'm sorry if this offends anybody.

Not at all! There is a lesson of sharing and mutual respect that some Christians have yet to learn.

I simply think the way you communicate your point of view is completely arrogant, forceful and un-Christian-like. It is NOT the truth. It is the truth as YOU have chosen believe it. It requires taking a lot of unprovable and very bizarre things on faith. I'm perfectly fine with your beliefs and your right to have them. but the two-way street stops there. This aggressive behavior becomes okay in your mind since you believe that you are right. The bigotry isn't in your beliefs. It's how some Christians make others bend to them.

I think this country is big enough to have both gay marriage and practicing Christians. Some religious folk act as spoiled children who haven't learned sharing and they make the whole lot of Christians look bad. While I believe the essence of Christianity to be complete madness, there are so many Christians in my life whom I love and respect. I wouldn't want to change a single thing about them or they me. However, some Christians often act as schoolyard bullies since their faith is widely popular in America.

I don't hate you or your beliefs. It's your continued insensitive behavior that saddens me. If you're interested in witnessing, then you should try another tactic. And if you think Christians are truly persecuted in this country, then multiply that horrible feeling you get from it by 10 and know that's what gay people feel every day. But you don't. You only see from one point of view and arrogantly bark religious doctrine at us and feel righteous about it. You in fact make that persecution worse. Many Christians do the same. Many don't. It is that particular offense that I was pointing out. Your beliefs should not shape my life.

In essence, I don't have a problem with Christians or Christianity. I have a problem with jerks and bullies.

 

[Drtooth]

Obviously, my plea is falling on deaf ears. Frogboy, obviously you think that you're fine now and you don't sin and that you don't need a savior. That's a nice thought but it's a lie. You may believe that now but someday you'll have to answer for that. You obvioulsy disagree with me and won't accept God's love. Therefore, there really is no more point to me actually posting in this thread. You think that I'm being judgemental and probably even a bigot. That's fine. Jesus said that the world will hate me but I must persevere. Also, my rights are being attacked and Christians are being silenced. But now, while I still have these rights I will stand up for them. Once Christians begin to be persecuted in America, there will be a movement to step up and fight back. And I will gladly suffer for the name of Christ. Honestly, I just hope somebody can reach you and I hope that I can reach out to others more.

@Drtooth: My views won't evolve, at least not the way you think they will. I will always love my savior and I will always reach out and tell everyone I know about him. He died for me, and the least I can do is live like he did and spread his good news to all who listen. I AM NOT ASHAMED OF THE GOSPEL! I will shout it from the rooftops. Yet, here, my message is not being heard. So, there's no reason to continue this, obviously.

You know, we're all trying to be rational and not trying to vilify anyone, but....

Forcing religious views on anyone is just as bad as someone taking your religion from you.

I want to see EXACTLY where I said you should drop Christ like a hot rock when I said attitudes and views about some niggling footnote always evolve over time. It isn't a Christian or religious thing, it's a societal thing. No one's telling you to be ashamed of Christianity. We're basically saying we don't agree and because of those niggling footnotes, atrocities are being committed all over the world as they have been for centuries in the hands of religion and lack of religion alike. I'm saying our "leaders" are corrupted by power and tell everyone what they want them to believe so they can control our governments.

The culture war is every bit as much of a creation of rich religious fascists and their rich book writing buddies as it is pinhead pseudo-atheists that want to heal the world by sounding like know it all jerks instead of being... I dunno, respectful and persuasive? The Culture war needs to be walked away from by BOTH SIDES! Everyone's acting like a friggin' victim, because they WANT to become martyrs. The completely imaginary war on Christianity was created by the same people that said "Hey, let's go drop some bombs on another country." When will everyone learn everything's a hoax and we all got hosed.

That said, if Christians want respect and to not be vilified, STOP WITH THE FREAKIN HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN stuff! It's your right to think so, it's not your right to rub it in everyone's face and then complain when people get offended. You also have no right to deny anyone their rights as they have no right to deny yours. That said, only a certain amount of Christians even bother believing that anymore. That doesn't save anyone, that doesn't help the poor, that doesn't feed the hungry, that's not healing the lepers... it's some footnote that keeps everyone nice and divided.

No one has the right to make you not a Christian... beliefs are a personal thing. But if you pick and choose anything in this thread that makes you offended, go ahead... I posted a very angry lower case "i" a while back.

 

[frogboy4]

(what he said)
thanks tooth!

 

[Drtooth]

Seriously, if I hear, "Why do those sexual deviant liberal hippy nazi monster godless freaks hate us so?" or "why does everyone we paint with a brush paint us with a brush" from anyone one more time, I'm gonna lose it. bot sides are to blame, the culture war sells O'Reily books to paranoid people, we're all victims of ourselves, but more victims of the wealthy that wanna keep us down.

 

[Bannanasketch]

How to say this ....
Imagine you have lived a long life without ever eating eggs. Now imagine that someone comes up to you, someone who not only eats lots of eggs but also has a vested interest in you buying and eating them. They claim that there is no way on Earth you will ever survive without eating eggs. It doesn't matter, they say, that you retort that some people are allergic to eggs. They will simpy die a horrible death after an awfully short life. It doesn't matter that so far, you've lived to 80 years of age without eating an egg. It's bound to catch up to you someday, they say.
"Let the Buyer Beware". "Judge a Tree by its Fruit."
Just because someone has claimed something is there, doesn't mean it is. Oil companies tell us that the whole world will implode if we stop using oil. Incandescent light bulb companies whine that we all die of mercury poison in the dark if we stop buying their products.
And Christianity is one of a few religions that tell others that we will suffer horrible consequences if we don't buy their particular brand of thought.

I'm just going to put it bluntly... I completely disagree with you. That's all I have to say.

I don't think it's them who are not accepting God's love. I guess you've never entertained the concept that God has decreed He loves them and it's YOU with the problem? Remember how Jonah was so upset that God forgave the Ninevah folks? Well, that's really what you're doing ... God hasn't smited them and you aren't happy about it. You're all about listening to God, but as soon as it becomes clear that God has decided something you don't like, it gets on your nerves.

Okay, this part you have what I said all wrong. I never said anything about God never loving them. God loves everybody and wants nobody to turn away from him. it breaks his heart. But he'll never stop loving them. It's a matter of accepting his love. It's like a gift. Is it the fault of the giver if the receiver doesn't accept the gift? The same is true for God's love but he's always going to love you and whenever you're ready, he'll be there ready for you. I don't have a problem with that at all. I just wanted to make it clear that is not what I thought.

Every Christian who has ever been killed or tortured should have a little talk with you. God, it's offensive to whine about persecution when all we're doing is offering some perspectives on your worldview.

I'm not whining about persecution. I'm stating a fact that in the coming years, Christianity will be more and more silenced. Hopefully, that doesn't happen but it's slowly starting. I'm not really whining like you say I am. I don't really understand what you mean, to be honest.

Jesus' "turn the other cheek" just isn't your cup of tea, is it? Vandalism is the extent of Jesus' aggressive streak. Learn from that.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. So, you think that when Christians are persecuted, we just need to let it go and not fight back? Umm, okay...?

I doubt it. A little criticism and you cry like a baby. I'd hate to see what would happen should the kitchen get any hotter than room temperature.

Again, you're absolutely wrong here! Christ suffered for me, so what makes you think I wouldn't do the same for him? The apostles even suffered when they went out to teach his message, they were persecuted and were glad that they were able to suffer in the name of Christ Jesus. I don't understand why you think I'm "crying like a baby"?

Not at all! There is a lesson of sharing and mutual respect that some Christians have yet to learn.

I simply think the way you communicate your point of view is completely arrogant, forceful and un-Christian-like. It is NOT the truth. It is the truth as YOU have chosen believe it. It requires taking a lot of unprovable and very bizarre things on faith. I'm perfectly fine with your beliefs and your right to have them. but the two-way street stops there. This aggressive behavior becomes okay in your mind since you believe that you are right. The bigotry isn't in your beliefs. It's how some Christians make others bend to them.

I think this country is big enough to have both gay marriage and practicing Christians. Some religious folk act as spoiled children who haven't learned sharing and they make the whole lot of Christians look bad. While I believe the essence of Christianity to be complete madness, there are so many Christians in my life whom I love and respect. I wouldn't want to change a single thing about them or they me. However, some Christians often act as schoolyard bullies since their faith is widely popular in America.

I don't hate you or your beliefs. It's your continued insensitive behavior that saddens me. If you're interested in witnessing, then you should try another tactic. And if you think Christians are truly persecuted in this country, then multiply that horrible feeling you get from it by 10 and know that's what gay people feel every day. But you don't. You only see from one point of view and arrogantly bark religious doctrine at us and feel righteous about it. You in fact make that persecution worse. Many Christians do the same. Many don't. It is that particular offense that I was pointing out. Your beliefs should not shape my life.

In essence, I don't have a problem with Christians or Christianity. I have a problem with jerks and bullies.

Thank you for the well thought out response. I guess to say this, I believe that it is the truth and I believe that I know it's the truth. I know you'll disagree with me about it being the truth because you don't believe it. I could say that "We'll all know for sure someday" but I really can't because I already know for sure and we can know. Of course, you'll disagree with this, go right ahead. I'm just stating my view. And yeah, a lot of it is based on faith too but there has been times when I cannot deny God because he's clearly there.

Honestly, the problem I have with gay marriage is that I simply have a hard time supporting a sin. Of course, you disagree with me on the sin thing but look at it from my view. I just can't support something like that and it's hard for me to ask what Jesus would do because Jesus didn't say anything about this. But I'm also looking at this from your view and I understand why you believe what you believe. that's why I'm stuck neutral on this issue.

I apologize for your persecution because you're gay. It is sad and it needs to stop but I don't see how I'm adding to it. I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes but I apologize for your being insulted and hurt. I can't see it from your point of view and you can't see it from my point of view. It's hard to understand each other really.

I also apologize if I came off as harsh in my last post but I don't regret what I actually said. I'm sorry if you think I'm a bully and a jerk. I'm just stating my views. Please don't think of me like that.

 

[frogboy4]

Thank you for the well thought out response. I guess to say this, I believe that it is the truth and I believe that I know it's the truth. I know you'll disagree with me about it being the truth because you don't believe it. I could say that "We'll all know for sure someday" but I really can't because I already know for sure and we can know. Of course, you'll disagree with this, go right ahead. I'm just stating my view. And yeah, a lot of it is based on faith too but there has been times when I cannot deny God because he's clearly there.

Honestly, the problem I have with gay marriage is that I simply have a hard time supporting a sin. Of course, you disagree with me on the sin thing but look at it from my view. I just can't support something like that and it's hard for me to ask what Jesus would do because Jesus didn't say anything about this. But I'm also looking at this from your view and I understand why you believe what you believe. that's why I'm stuck neutral on this issue.

I apologize for your persecution because you're gay. It is sad and it needs to stop but I don't see how I'm adding to it. I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes but I apologize for your being insulted and hurt. I can't see it from your point of view and you can't see it from my point of view. It's hard to understand each other really.

I also apologize if I came off as harsh in my last post but I don't regret what I actually said. I'm sorry if you think I'm a bully and a jerk. I'm just stating my views. Please don't think of me like that.

I apologize for coming off harshly too. I do understand your point of view and respect it too. I also understand that it's hard for some Christians to support what they believe to be a sin, but should Jews be able to enforce their dietary laws on other people? That's what it boils down to for me. There's a difference between allowing certain freedoms and endorsing them.

I also understand how frustrating it can be for a Christian's message not to be heard as intended. I have a Muslim friend who often says "allahu akbar" to things and it's still disconcerting. All it means is "God is great", but it sounds creepy to me and much of western culture. That's exactly how a lot of people view Christian statements. I guess all of that is remedied by employing a little bit of understanding.

 

[Drtooth]

I also understand how frustrating it can be for a Christian's message not to be heard as intended. I have a Muslim friend who often says "allahu akbar" to things and it's still disconcerting. All it means is "God is great", but it sounds creepy to me and much of western culture.

To be fair, that's what suicide bombers supposedly say when they do the dirty work of the same oil barons that fund them, yet wouldn't even get their hands dirty. All religions try very hard to speak out against the sinister fascists that control their people (or minions) with fear. The good guys can scream at the top of their lungs into a megaphone connected to another megaphone for all their worth, but it still's far too quiet. There are too many propaganda machines that have been corrupted by the other sides to notice there's a problem. We don't want to see the man behind the curtain, power and greed are the root of all evil, and all that. Religion's just one of many different excuses/vehicles the true villains use. Again, we all have a common enemy, and we're too blinded to see it.