If "The Muppets" is a success: What's next?

[Beauregard]

One important truth that must be recognizable about MCC though is that for the UK -- it is the #1 most recognised Muppet film. Anyone I ever speak to knows of the Muppets primerally from MCC, then from TMS. Almost no one has ever seen or heard of TMM, GMC or MTM. Almost everyone here watches MCC every Christmas.

 

[Drtooth]

I still like Oz and think it could have been good if they'd have punched up the script, had a new lead besides Ashanti and increased the musical element. The half-baked song inclusions almost seem like an apology. It was like they were sorry to bother those who hate musicals, bud didn't want to disappoint fans who like Muppets to sing in their projects. I guess this was really missing in VMX too.

The Oz script's problems seem to have derived from the page itself. It clearly wasn't ready. No running length, ad lib or musical number could have saved it. I don't remember who was at the helm, but whoever led the Muppets' Oz and KSY needs to stay away from the relaunch IMHO.

Johnny Fiama?!? Now you're just messing with our heads here.

Anyway... there's just so much wrong with Oz, listing anything would seem futile. But to say the least, I believe that certain 1930's movie which almost everyone loves (I like it too) kinda ruined the legacy of future versions of the book's story in movies. It wasn't until Wicked (morseso the musical than the book) when people actually paid attention to a different version of the story without trying to get it to hold up to the film. The Wiz is different, but still it wasn't extremely respected. You see, no matter how hard anyone tries, they ALWAYS wind up making references to the film. Same thing with Alice in Wonderland. Always has to reference the Disney version.

But the overall problem with the Muppet version (other than the fact they did it multiple times before... especially the allegorical aspects of The Muppet Movie) is the fact that at the time there were SOOOO many scripts floating around that sounded much better and presumably were closer to completion. If they absolutely had to do a retelling, why didn't they do the Hamlet one? That sounded like a prime place for over kid's heads satire. If they had to rush a telefilm into production, why not use something they already had, and had been sitting on?

That was MupOz's problem right there... lack of time, dodgy casting, Disney clearly had a small hand in the rush so they could show the stockholders something... I swear if it aired on Fox like it was intended, the American Idol stuff would have been a lot more prominant.

Plus, I still don't like them being referred to as puppets in their own movie. And not even in a clever inside jokey sort of way.

 

[Duke Remington]

Plus, I still don't like them being referred to as puppets in their own movie. And not even in a clever inside jokey sort of way.

By that, do you not like things such as, say, Howard Handupme? Or Kermit saying "We on The Muppet Show are very interested in puppets, for some strange reason?" or the puppet jokes in the Senor Wences episode as well?

Then again, those earlier examples are more subtle, without actually calling themselves "puppets" or being called "puppets" by others.

 

[Drtooth]

By that, do you not like things such as, say, Howard Handupme? Or Kermit saying "We on The Muppet Show are very interested in puppets, for some strange reason?" or the puppet jokes in the Senor Wences episode as well?

I LOVE the cleverly disguised asides, don't get me wrong. But when someone turns to the camera and says, "They're puppets" it's not clever at all. It was a bad line in a bad script full of them. Subtle asides like Grover playing with a marionette saying "It must be fun to be a puppet" or Uncle Matt strangely finding resemblance in a large puppet are quite funny, but they manage to keep the illusion of them actually being creatures.

The line in Oz might as well have been, "Once Steve puts the Kermit puppet back in his box, I'm sure he can make a few phone calls for you!"

Oz was a bad foot forward for Disney's Muppet ownership. Even though the only hand they had was helping to further rush it into production. When you look at how much of a smash VMX was... great ratings, good reviews... Muppet stuff started sprouting out all over the place (also due in part to the Palisades line)... Oz got bad ratings, especially opposite the Daytime Emmys on the night a Star Wars film was released... and the reviews from fans and critics alike wasn't spectacular. Even when it was released on DVD, it wasn't budging off the shelves, whereas the Muppet Show Season 1 barely stayed in stock. No wonder it took so many years to recognize the ownership of the characters.

But they hired a new head of the division, they started slowly to bring the brand forth... the gave us a couple TV specials, a comic book series (then took it away abruptly ), viral videos, both on YT and their own site, and we're getting a theatrical movie. Something none of us would ever expect ever again. And they've been careful with the script and tried to slowly work this into production so they have a quality project.

No one wants to make an Oz-like eye sore ever again.

 

[minor muppetz]

If there's another Muppet show, maybe it should revolve around the Muppets running their own station, as opposed to putting on one show. I'd thought this recently while reading a thread at Tough Pigs concerning Muppets Tonight, where it was pointed out that the format kept changing between being a variety show and a sitcom with sketches.

And I realised, in the first episode, at the beginning the Muppets have a meeting, with Kermit pointing out the new Muppet studio and having Gonzo read the shcedule line-up. The writers realised what format worked best with the last episode, but if the show continued and was more of a sitcom, I wonder if they would have done away with putting on a show.

If a show was about the Muppets running a station, it could have the Muppets running a number of different shows, maybe showing portions of different shows. And there could be plots that don't show any shows, and plenty of scenes taking place away from the station. There wouldn't need to be a weekly guest star (though I'd expect any Muppet show to have guests regardless of format).

 

[dwmckim]

I have no doubts that a new television show would rock. But the trick is getting it on a network with a good timeslot and promotion. I have total faith in the Muppet team to put on a good show; i have very huge fears about what network interference and impatience would do with it.

I'm also really nervous about whatever a next theatrical film would be - how to follow-up this one. Disney's going all out making this all about The Muppets and the title says it all...THE MUPPETS. Even though i'd like to believe and have faith the film is the beginning of Muppet Domination...i have a sinking feeling in my gut, that the film may be treated as Disney's Big Muppet Project that they put everything behind and pull out all the stops on just to let anything afterward just kind of exist. I wish i could put this more eloquently - i know what i want to say but can't quite find the words (lots of offline stuff clouding my head)

I just fear Disney may end up seeing this as THE Muppets and not The MUPPETS, the one project they acquired the brand for and explode like wild and then let it slide from then on out.

I want to believe Disney has a longterm plan as far as what comes next after the film but something inside says not to get my hopes up. Even if Diz does keep things going, i also fear that they'll fall in the same habit the Muppets always seem to fall into whenever they do a major project - everyone waits and sees to see the reaction to it before making any plans as to how to follow it up instead of getting the process started during the time between completion and release and letting the momentum that had previously been built up drop, and by the time the next major project is ready, it has to be considered another "relaunch" because so much time has passed.

 

[frogboy4]

I really would like to see a Muppet TV program that transcended the backstage antics and actually covered their misadventures outside the theater. They'd of course rehearse some sketches and all of this would lead up to raising the curtain at the very end. Possibly some musical number finale too. I think that could be interesting.

 

[bingboingcutie]

One important truth that must be recognizable about MCC though is that for the UK -- it is the #1 most recognised Muppet film. Anyone I ever speak to knows of the Muppets primerally from MCC, then from TMS. Almost no one has ever seen or heard of TMM, GMC or MTM. Almost everyone here watches MCC every Christmas.

really? I think the old ones are the best. Who hasn't seen, owned, or taken their kids to a screening of MTM, as scary as the taxi hit was?

 

[Drtooth]

I have no doubts that a new television show would rock. But the trick is getting it on a network with a good timeslot and promotion. I have total faith in the Muppet team to put on a good show; i have very huge fears about what network interference and impatience would do with it.

I'm also really nervous about whatever a next theatrical film would be - how to follow-up this one. Disney's going all out making this all about The Muppets and the title says it all...THE MUPPETS. Even though i'd like to believe and have faith the film is the beginning of Muppet Domination...i have a sinking feeling in my gut, that the film may be treated as Disney's Big Muppet Project that they put everything behind and pull out all the stops on just to let anything afterward just kind of exist. I wish i could put this more eloquently - i know what i want to say but can't quite find the words (lots of offline stuff clouding my head)

The worry is, for any franchise, that the movie always has to carry the weight of how popular the franchise is. And we get one of two things, franchise popularity based on the movie's popularity meaning future projects and products will have to resemble the movie... like the Chipmunks and how everything Chipmunk related has to look like the movie (I wonder about the Smurfs.... the movie was hugely popular... not as bad as the previews made it out to be, but not great... will Smurf stuff now have blue eyes?) OR the movie tanks, the franchise is put into a box and shoved into the back of the closet, presumably until something changes hands like Underdog or Rocky and Bullwinkle. Bullwinkle NEVER recovered. Looney Tunes sort of recovered from BIA, but only after a horrendous turn.

Of course, if the movie is a smash, the Muppets always look relatively the same as they always have. The worry is if it isn't, it will fall to the wayside.

Ad for a TV show, I want one. We all would want one, we'd all love one. But dw hit it on the head with this one. The Muppets never had a good run on network television... except for the babies cartoon, but that doesn't count. JHH disappeared silently, due to NBC's refusal to put the show in a good time slot and even bother to promote it. MT got the short end of the stick on ABC, first getting kicked off a Friday night slot because it wasn't pulling in Boy Meets World ratings, dumped on Sunday Night opposite 60 minutes (which not only killed Pinky and the Brain in prime time, but P&B kept mentioning that in their show for their Saturday run).

I do NOT see ABC making room for a Muppet program. They found gold in Modern Family and The Middle... The sexy doctor shows are still doing well, but other than that, there's too much experimentation. Their reality crap is solid, sure... Housewives's popularity burned out quick (can't say I blame them for cancelling it), they're putting stock in an ugly period piece show as a "If Mad Men did it, WE CAN!" idea, a terrible remake of a terrible show in the first place (Charlie's Angels) and a bunch of ephemeral sitcoms that won't gain ground. If it went on another network, especially NBC, there's no inter-corporate love. The Disney Channel or ABC Family could theoretically have it, but they're too stuck up in their demographics to try anything new. A new Muppet show NEEDS to find a home that gives them all the potential they deserve... but in this climate? No.

 

[minor muppetz]

I hope that Pepe continues to be a main character after the new movie. Rizzo, too. Though I seem to notice a trend when it comes to the Muppets Tonight characters being integrated with the classic characters.

At first, the Muppets Tonight characters who continued to be used were Pepe, Clifford, Johnny Fiama, Sal, Bobo, and to a lesser extent Dr. Phil Van Neuter. Then Clifford and Dr. Phil were pretty much dropped, and it seems that Bobo was retired for a few years. Then after The Muppets Wizard of Oz Johnny and Sal were very scarcely used, and around 2008 they brought back Carl (who hadn't been seen since Muppets Tonight got canceled) and Bobo, and it seems Pepe, Bobo, and Carl had become "the Muppets Tonight three" to be used with the classic characters (Andy and Randy were also brought back for one episode of The Muppets Kitchen). With the new movie, Bobo is the only one to be a major character, while others are included.

If they drop Pepe, then Bill Barretta will be able to focus more on Rowlf, Dr. Teeth, and The Swedish Chef, but I hope Pepe will return as a main character in the next big production after The Muppets.

Maybe this belongs in another thread, but while Henson and Disney have been recasting many characters originated by Henson, Oz, Hunt, and Nelson in the past decade (some characters changing hands throughout the decade), it seems they don't want to recast Clifford or Sal. I don't know if they just think people won't care about them as much as the classics, or if they are holding out hope they can eventually get Kevin Clash or Brian Henson to perform with the Muppets again someday, or if it's something else (Bill Barretta might not feel too comfortable performing Johnny Fiama to anyone else's Sal).