The Bible and Love and Christians

[CensoredAlso]

I do find it insulting that you'd believe discussing the civil rights plight of a minority holds the same legitimacy as advocating the denial of civil rights to them. It's intellectually dishonest to say they are the same thing.

No hard feelings but just wanted to respond to this. If you're referring to abortion, not everyone in the gay community agrees with you:

The Prolife Alliance of Gays and Lesbians:
http://www.plagal.org/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/PLAGAL-The-Prolife-Alliance-of-Gays-and-Lesbians/99136188374?ref=ts

 

[frogboy4]

No hard feelings but just wanted to respond to this. If you're referring to abortion, not everyone in the gay community agrees with you:

The Prolife Alliance of Gays and Lesbians:
http://www.plagal.org/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/PLAGAL-The-Prolife-Alliance-of-Gays-and-Lesbians/99136188374?ref=ts

No. You are the only one that is still talking about abortion. You've got abortion on the brain! Something is going on in your head that's being projected into my posts. Please let's not merge the topic of abortion into this thread.

My statment: I do find it insulting that you'd believe discussing the civil rights plight of a minority holds the same legitimacy as advocating the denial of civil rights to them. It's intellectually dishonest to say they are the same thing.

That was a direct reaction to your equating the legitimacy of a discussion encouraging the denial of gay civil rights to one that advocates for them. One stance is clearly prejudice while the other one is not. A person does not have to agree with gays to permit them rights and these right do not encroach on any Christian's ability to practice their religion. That was, is and always will be my point - nothing more an nothing less.

 

[D'Snowth]

I'm surprised this thread is still alive and active.

You rarely, if ever, see religious discussions on forums like this that don't eventually break out into flame wars with people spouting, "There is no God, he's a fairy tale, shut up already, ya retard" at those trying to carry on the conversation, with a mod or admin stepping in and closing the discussion saying, "Yes, they're right, there is no God, case closed."

I mean, with how MC is so prone to flame wars itself anymore, I'm just surprised at how long this thread's life is spanning.

 

[frogboy4]

I'm surprised this thread is still alive and active.

You rarely, if ever, see religious discussions on forums like this that don't eventually break out into flame wars with people spouting, "There is no God, he's a fairy tale, shut up already, ya retard" at those trying to carry on the conversation, with a mod or admin stepping in and closing the discussion saying, "Yes, they're right, there is no God, case closed."

I mean, with how MC is so prone to flame wars itself anymore, I'm just surprised at how long this thread's life is spanning.

There was some of that on both sides early on, but for the most part this has been utilized as a bridge rather than a chasm. I think most friendships on the forum have been strengthened by those who have participated in this thread. It has also exposed some overlap between gays and Christians. There's the incorrect assumption that because someone is gay that they don't have any ties to Christianity.

Personally I don't agree with the Bible or its stories, but I very much agree with its overall message of self-renewal that can happen at any time in one's life.

I don't believe in the bully mentality of the conservative Fox Newsies that we are a Christian nation and everybody else needs to pipe down and surrender some of their rights because of it. The thing is, that's not and has never been a Christian value. There's a growing movement within the US and particularly in the Christian community that realizes this wedge issue has served as a distraction that only helps some politicians get elected and some churches to increase donations. Doogie Howser marrying his partner and raising a kid together won't interfere one bit with any Christian's right to practice their religion and live their lives under their their theology.

That's kind of the gist of this thread - not to change minds concerning the legitimacy of gays or Christians, rather to respect these differences and in some cases even celebrate them.

 

[CensoredAlso]

That was a direct reaction to your equating the legitimacy of a discussion encouraging the denial of gay civil rights to one that advocates for them. One stance is clearly prejudice while the other one is not. A person does not have to agree with gays to permit them rights and these right do not encroach on any Christian's ability to practice their religion. That was, is and always will be my point - nothing more an nothing less.

Ah ok, I honestly didn't realize what you were referring to. I was thinking of something similar you had said previously.

Now that I know what you're referring to, I'm sorry but I still stand by what I said. I am disturbed by the purposes of this thread. It is targeting one particular group and that's not fair. And I'm saying this as an advocate of gay rights.

But I'm sick of fighting and being accused of things left and right. I have other things to do. I know I'm the one who posted again, but this time I'm done. It just makes me too sad to stick around this thread anymore. Take care.

 

[frogboy4]

Ah ok, I honestly didn't realize what you were referring to. I was thinking of something you had said previously.

Now that I know what you're referring to, I'm sorry but I still stand by what I said. I am disturbed by the purposes of this thread. And I'm saying this as an advocate of gay rights.

But I'm sick of fighting, I have other things to do, take care.

I completely disagree and think it's clear that you haven't been reading the posts all the way through before reacting to them. I know that exposing the bigotry still alive in a lot of the Christian community is upsetting. Maybe this thread isn't for you. It's very important that the Pat Robertsons be brought up so that more folk like you can offer the insight that he doesn't speak for every Christian. Sweeping that hatemonger under the rug out of some misguided sensitivity is extremely dangerous and the truth is, even if he comes off as a buffoon, there are many who still believe in his bizarre argument that the sky will fall if gay rights advance. I'm glad that you support gay rights. Sometimes stray statements you've made rub me the wrong way and I will always ask for clarification of those.

It appears you have been trying to change the topic to one of abortion and other issues when this is a thread that started as a reaction to the Trevor Project about gays being bullied at school and the Christian reaction to that. Maybe you've said all you care to say on the topic and would like to advance onto another conversation and there's an opportunity to create a specific thread for that. I'd certainly join that discussion and adhere to those guidelines.

There was a time not so long ago when Muppet Central was considered to be unfriendly to gays. There's a history and instead of dragging that out or assigning blame I have chosen to be proactive. As long as I'm here, there's a place for gay Muppet fans to be out and open as much as they wish to be. In fact, that's one of the few reasons why I still stick around MC. Some members have asked me to do so in order to maintain a safe space for the gay Muppet fanatic.

Christians have had many, many, many threads that no one has even thought of censoring, but when it comes to gays there's always this feeling that maybe we should end this discussion or take it down. Now that would be prejudice! Gays and Christians are also among the largest groups who are also Muppet fans! It's one of those things shared by a few other entertainers like Dolly Parton. Funny but true. There's a thesis paper somewhere in that!

 

[CensoredAlso]

I know that exposing the bigotry still alive in a lot of the Christian community is upsetting.

Wow, thanks for the condescension. You really think that's what bothered me? That I can't stand to see my religion criticized? Believe me...I'm a woman in the Catholic Church, I know all about its bigotry.

The only problem I have with this thread is that it's dedicated to bashing one particular religion. Any other group has clearly been getting a free pass, no matter how heinous their crimes against gay rights. There's a double standard and it stinks.

Sweeping that hatemonger under the rug out of some misguided sensitivity is extremely dangerous

How was I sweeping him under the rug? I have no connection to the man whatsoever (again, I'm feeling HUAC vibes here) and I'd never defend him to anyone. Should all Muslims have to constantly make it clear that they're not all terrorists? No. Then Christians shouldn't have to constantly make it clear that they're not Pat Robertson.

Talk about bullying...

I enjoy talking with you. But you just can't let go of the idea that I'm an enemy. You're glad that I support gay rights, but it's like you won't be happy until I say "Christianity sucks." I'm sorry but life is a little more complicated than that. I'm not mad, I'm just really hurt because I did like talking to you. Again, if Christians are allowed to be hurt.

 

[frogboy4]

Wow, thanks for the condescension. You really think that's what bothered me? That I can't stand to see my religion criticized? Believe me...I'm a woman in the Catholic Church, I know all about its bigotry.

The only problem I have with this thread is that it's dedicated to bashing one particular religion. Any other group has clearly been getting a free pass, no matter how heinous their crimes against gay rights. There's a double standard and it stinks.

You may repeat that as many times as you'd like, but that is not true in the least. Your religion is not being criticized by me. This thread is not about bashing a particular religion. Quite the contrary!

Particular prejudices in the Christian community have been addressed and that's how this thread started. You apparently accepted that premise from the beginning, yet you reject it now. I don't know what's going on. You've been projecting a lot recently as evidenced by your strange off-topic response to a post a couple hours ago. Somehow, critical discussion of the popular Pat Robertson stance is some sort of personal affront to you. It's not.

It's only now that I see your responses as possible passive aggressive attempts to shut this thread down due to ulterior motives. I don't know how else to explain your very uneven mood throughout this discussion.

The topic of this thread has always been about bringing to light and bridging the differences Christians, gay rights and the Trevor Project. 99.9% of everything I post has this in mind. Not war, not abortion, not the oppression of women in the Catholic church, not Obama, not health care, not Muslims. It's about the Bible, love and Christians peaceful coexisting with gay civil rights in the United States.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Somehow, critical discussion of the popular Pat Robertson stance is some sort of personal affront to you. It's not.

The discussion wasn't simply about Pat Robertson. It was about you hoping Christians didn't support him. As though you had to ask first. I was offended by that because I'd never support that idiot and I shouldn't have to explain myself.

It's only now that I see your responses as possible passive aggressive attempts to shut this thread down due to ulterior motives. I don't know how else to explain your very uneven mood throughout this discussion.

Again, I'm really hurt. And I'm hurt that you'd just turn on me like that. I love posting on this thread and I love debating these topics! I just felt like the hostility towards Christianity was getting to be too much. If you can't see that, if all you can do is accuse me of things, then I guess you don't know me at all...

You've been projecting a lot recently as evidenced by your strange off-topic response to a post a couple hours ago.

I misunderstood you. Period. No conspiracy. No nothing, lol. And I think you're misunderstanding me here now.

 

[frogboy4]

Oka

The discussion wasn't simply about Pat Robertson. It was about you hoping Christians didn't support him. As though you had to ask first. I was offended by that because I'd never support that idiot and I shouldn't have to explain myself.

Again, I'm really hurt. And I'm hurt that you'd just turn on me like that. I love posting on this thread and I love debating these topics! I just felt like the hostility towards Christianity was getting to be too much. If you can't see that, if all you can do is accuse me of things, then I guess you don't know me at all...

(Edited for content as discussed by both members)

Okay, I am bewildered!

I've tried to be sensitive. For some reason my statements have been misconstrued as direct and personal criticisms. I am completely lost!

I don't want to reformat this thread, but I don't think the topic is really the issue. This isn't the first time we've done this dance before so it must be a personality clash.

Maybe we should cool down in responding to one another for a little while

I will clarify that the inclusion of Pat Robertson's homophobic clip was intended to expose an otherwise popular view by some other Christians for the crazy notion it really is.