The Bible and Love and Christians

[RedPiggy]

Just saying, many people also hate Chrisitans because it's politically correct and have a false impression that it's somehow rebellious in this day and age. Meanwhile they ignore other religions that have similar or even worse violations of human rights.

Every religion has had its good days and bad days. "Certain religions" are having bad days now, but ours isn't exactly squeaky clean over the course of history. I don't think it's "PC" to bash Christianity. I think it's a reply to those who tend to see Christianity in a "we can do no wrong" sort of way. Not saying you do, just a cultural observation. The kinds of Christians who gripe about, say, Islam being ultra-violent are just inviting a retort about Christian history, even to this day, where minorities can still be dragged behind a truck or shot or whatever just because they're different, or whole clinics can be firebombed because as we all know, murder is okay as long as you're protecting citizens who aren't citizens according to the "sacred" US Constitution (and the bible, really). Maybe if Christianity would be a smidge more humble about its own logs, it could have some time to pick out specks in others.

And oh yeah, the terrorists hate Christians simply because we're not their religion.

This is something that even Bill Maher loves to say, but let's be truly, TRULY honest: this isn't about religion. Religion is fed as the purpose to all the grunts, but it is NOT the reason for terrorism. "They" don't hate us for being "free", nor do "they" hate us for being Christian (since "they" are more than willing to kill fellow Muslims). No, "they" hate us because we aren't like the two-bit hicks they're used to dealing with, who have no resources to fend off a bunch of guys with bullets and TNT. We can flick them off like flies, and it's that insult to their image of self-importance that REALLY gets their goat. They are so used to getting their way that they can't understand that after a few months of griping, we'll just keep doing what we're doing as if they hadn't done much at all. Now, historically speaking, we shouldn't totally discount mosquitoes, since "barbarians" can get some good shots in on an imperial backside, but they certainly aren't on the level of Dr. Doom or Lex Luthor. They WANT to be, but we simply outclass them. Yes, we won in a sort of Ewoks-defend-against-the-Empire sort of way, but we also sucked up to a superpower to get the firepower we needed in order to win, otherwise we wouldn't have. Had we blocked their access to our planes (obviously, you can't do it based on race, but surely we could make some sort of very long term residency requirement and clean background check to narrow the field down ... and maybe add some airplane control overrides at the tower ... though that is risky too), they couldn't have done anything.

However, this thread was started about this very topic concerning gay rights and Christianity. Obama politics, wars in the Middle East and lengthy discussions about other religions are fringe discussions that are not on-topic and would likely be best explored in depth elsewhere.

It's incredibly off-topic, but I rationalize it thusly: talk of certain politicians or of wars (especially those supposedly done for ideological reasons against the "axis of evil") are okay here simply because it adds background to the kind of mentality (namely, the self-boosting of the elite against everyone else, whether we're talking class wars or political/military wars) that leads up to the battle for gay marriage. As long as someone believes another rational human being (see what I did there? LOL) deserves to be put on the rack to make us more "comfortable", we will continue to put ourselves at risk. The Roman Empire had to back down and make Italians (heretofore known as "allies", not true "citizens") citizens just to stop them from fighting all the time. We had to break down and make African-Americans and Native Americans citizens. As soon as you stop screwing over a population, you might just actually improve your OWN lot.

But in the same spirit of equal rights, I just can't keep posting in a thread that's dedicated to bashing one particular group.

I grasp that, but the title, in all frankness, should've clued you in to which group(s) would be discussed, don't you think?

People like Pat Robertslime and Jerry Farright give Christians a bad name, and as a Christian myself, I am FURIOUS at these guys.

Exactly. Heck, even BP Richfield, while being against gay marriage in the press, would be making Wesayso brand gay marriage regalia, because to a TRUE capitalist, the idea is to make money, and that's opening up a profitable market.

 

[Drtooth]

Exactly. Heck, even BP Richfield, while being against gay marriage in the press, would be making Wesayso brand gay marriage regalia, because to a TRUE capitalist, the idea is to make money, and that's opening up a profitable market.

Wedge issues keep things from getting done... reason A

Scaring people is the best way to get votes (on both sides)... reason B

and above all,

OUR politicians only grant rights and privileges to party doners and companies that hire the lobbyists... Reason C

Simple.

As for the bashing one political side? Who are we kidding?

Conservatism is what it is, Liberals think they can make a difference but are too weak and pathetic to do anything, Libertarians are batscat nuts and selfish, indie parties are completely disorganized and more special interest than special interest groups... hey, they ALL suck, don't they?

 

[frogboy4]

No problem.

But in the same spirit of equal rights, I just can't keep posting in a thread that's dedicated to bashing one particular group. I mean, it would be like if someone started a thread with the sole purpose of putting gay rights on trial. I wouldn't post in that kind of thread either.

I've said before I felt like I was caught in the middle of a divorce? Well I can't keep visiting Parent #1 while he or she is bashing Parent #2. Or vice versa. I shouldn't have to choose loyalties like that. Frankly, I'd rather be an orphan, lol.

Nor should I have to explain that I don't support Pat Robertson. I mean seriously? I'm sorry but I was really offended by that. That is, if a Christian is allowed to get offended...

I'm not mad at anyone here. Like I said, have fun. I'll leave you guys to your discussion. Take care.

Oh, i certainly don't think that's the case!

One section of one group (that is mainly Christian-based) is trying to deprive another group (LGBT men and women) of gaining equal rights in the United States.

I've never debated whether Christians should have rights. They should and there's no real issue with that except for the Bill O'Reilly created "war on Christmas" garbage.I like Christmas and will stab anyone with a candycane that tries to take it away from me. I'll cut ya! (sarcasm)

No group should take rights away from another group. That's not what gaining gay rights would do, but there are people like Pat Robertson who mislead people into believing that will be the case. He's not the only Christian to do so. There are many other like minded folk who don't come off like such a crack-pot. Its actually a frighteningly popular stance. Of course there are many Christians who do not agree with them. It's not always apparent because they are not as vocal for some reason, but that is their right!

I will admit that there are many Atheists and others that are gay, straight and otherwise who do want to unfairly marginalize Christians. A thread on that would be interesting. I'd, of course, come out on the side of equality. Shocker.

This thread is about one segment of one group who's been bashing gays in every area of life. This is not about bashing Christians or Christianity and don't see what you see in the posts. I'm very careful about mine!

I do find it insulting that you'd believe discussing the civil rights plight of a minority holds the same legitimacy as advocating the denial of civil rights to them. It's intellectually dishonest to say they are the same thing.

 

[Drtooth]

I've never debated whether Christians should have rights. They should and there's no real issue with that except for the Bill O'Reilly created "war on Christmas" garbage.I like Christmas and will stab anyone with a candycane that tries to take it away from me. I'll cut ya! (sarcasm)

The war on Christmas/Christianity is just a nice little bunch of manipulation talking heads get so they can sell their books and keep getting people to turn in. Sort of like those news reports that say "you're favorite brand of breakfast cereal may be killing you" only to find out you have to sit through the entire report to find out it's a brand you never heard of, and the fact it's slightly dangerous if you have an allergy if anything. It's the same as the "Are your kids snorting Carpet Fresh because we found 5 unsupervised kids that did?"

Shock is shock for shocks sake. The only problem Christmas has is pee pants pseudo-Athiests and extremely PC people who actually come from religious backgrounds... and all they can do is ruin a school play. There is clearly a want to create a cultural divide... and even those who want no part of it get sucked up unwittingly.

No group should take rights away from another group. That's not what gaining gay rights would do, but there are people like Pat Robertson who mislead people into believing that will be the case. He's not the only Christian to do so. There are many other like minded folk who don't come off like such a crack-pot. Its actually a frighteningly popular stance. Of course there are many Christians who do not agree with them. It's not always apparent because they are not as vocal for some reason, but that is their right!

Exactly... what have I been saying on this thread a million times? People need to step up and marginalize their extremist counterparts so THEY can regain their real stance. We need to distance ourselves from the very same paintbrush we cry about the other side painting us with. No one's doing ANY favors listening to people PAID to tell us what to think. They're paid by someone, and that someone is EVERYONE'S enemy.

The problem is, the ones that DO speak out get overshadowed by the ones with the loudest voices, the meanest rhetoric, and the most money. And the everyone else paints everyone else with the same brush BECAUSE of these extremist people. Saying every Christian is crazy IS a rash, hateful, and mean spirited observation. Christians are NOT ALL the WBC, and I really feel more people need to speak out and marginalize dangerous groups, rather than be silent and get pelted with generalizations that don't apply.

Fact is, everyone has rights, but no one has the right to deprive anyone of rights. We SHOULD have Christmas celebrations AND gay Rights. Everyone should be happy, but the meanest, loudest, and nastiest want everyone to choose sides and buy books. They don't care. They make money.

 

[frogboy4]

The war on Christmas/Christianity is just a nice little bunch of manipulation talking heads get so they can sell their books and keep getting people to turn in. Sort of like those news reports that say "you're favorite brand of breakfast cereal may be killing you" only to find out you have to sit through the entire report to find out it's a brand you never heard of, and the fact it's slightly dangerous if you have an allergy if anything. It's the same as the "Are your kids snorting Carpet Fresh because we found 5 unsupervised kids that did?"

Shock is shock for shocks sake. The only problem Christmas has is pee pants pseudo-Athiests and extremely PC people who actually come from religious backgrounds... and all they can do is ruin a school play. There is clearly a want to create a cultural divide... and even those who want no part of it get sucked up unwittingly.

Exactly... what have I been saying on this thread a million times? People need to step up and marginalize their extremist counterparts so THEY can regain their real stance. We need to distance ourselves from the very same paintbrush we cry about the other side painting us with. No one's doing ANY favors listening to people PAID to tell us what to think. They're paid by someone, and that someone is EVERYONE'S enemy.

The problem is, the ones that DO speak out get overshadowed by the ones with the loudest voices, the meanest rhetoric, and the most money. And the everyone else paints everyone else with the same brush BECAUSE of these extremist people. Saying every Christian is crazy IS a rash, hateful, and mean spirited observation. Christians are NOT ALL the WBC, and I really feel more people need to speak out and marginalize dangerous groups, rather than be silent and get pelted with generalizations that don't apply.

Fact is, everyone has rights, but no one has the right to deprive anyone of rights. We SHOULD have Christmas celebrations AND gay Rights. Everyone should be happy, but the meanest, loudest, and nastiest want everyone to choose sides and buy books. They don't care. They make money.

Perfectly stated!

 

[beaker]

See, that blind hate of Christianity is even to someone like myself(who in the past has called all religions a false path or mind control) cringe worthy. The Islamic world is a thousand times more harsh toward gays than American Christians(tho African Christian nations seem to have a lock on Gay violence)

Not one Christian I know, even my conservative friends, give attention to Pat Robertson or the Falwell/religious right. They see them as harbingers of false teachings. Sadly these are not fringe orators of misguided views/hate(Falwell, Robertson, etc) I mean we live in a country where A LOT of people are racist to the core...so its no wonder a lot of Christians of all races in America feel the way Robertson does.

Look how Obama has slowly changed his views on gay rights. It just takes time. Again were talking about a country where there are still lynchings, killings, and horrific beatings of innocent people because of their race, faith or gender/gender preference.

 

[frogboy4]

See, that blind hate of Christianity is even to someone like myself(who in the past has called all religions a false path or mind control) cringe worthy. The Islamic world is a thousand times more harsh toward gays than American Christians(tho African Christian nations seem to have a lock on Gay violence)

Not one Christian I know, even my conservative friends, give attention to Pat Robertson or the Falwell/religious right. They see them as harbingers of false teachings. Sadly these are not fringe orators of misguided views/hate(Falwell, Robertson, etc) I mean we live in a country where A LOT of people are racist to the core...so its no wonder a lot of Christians of all races in America feel the way Robertson does.

Look how Obama has slowly changed his views on gay rights. It just takes time. Again were talking about a country where there are still lynchings, killings, and horrific beatings of innocent people because of their race, faith or gender/gender preference.

Nail on the head! Exactly right! The one thing I can appreciate about Robertson is how authentic his hate really is. There are many other hateful people in the world who find ways to hide it or justify it an a myriad of ways including but not limited to religion. However, I do think that Christians in this country are facing a backlash for not actively discrediting Roberson's statements and such politics of social engineering under one arbitrary ideal. If I were a Christian I'd be screaming from the rooftops for better leadership! I'd be active in my church and demand that people know exactly how accepting and tolerant the majority of peers I respect actually are. But there's no voice like that. Trust me, the media would cover that voice...a lot! A strong Christian leader going on record against the Ralph Reed clan. That's news!

Me and my gay peers are being oppressed in this country and this is mostly from the Christian conservatives. Should I shut up and take it? Should I say, "Well, not every Christian is like that so I shouldn't say a cross word about any of them!" and so on? Heck no! Even though the one's primarily leading the charge against gay rights are Christians, should I point out that there are a lot of Christians who don't want to stand in the way of gay rights? I already do in almost every friggin' post! My posts aren't "ganging up" on Christians. I speak loudly against the political movement in this country championed by key Christian leaders and many Christian followers that strive to deny me of civil rights. That's not Christian bashing. That's calling out the biggots!

Christian friends and family touch my life everyday and I have much respect for them! Always will!

Also, I have a feeling Obama really wanted to facilitate gay rights all along, but was playing politics to get there. I'm not really keen on how he accomplished this, but I'm glad where he's going now.

 

[Drtooth]

Also, I have a feeling Obama really wanted to facilitate gay rights all along, but was playing politics to get there. I'm not really keen on how he accomplished this, but I'm glad where he's going now.

The problem is, due to said Pseudo-Christian extremists, gay rights is political suicide. A lot of people feel that Massachusetts allowing gay rights won Bush the second election. And somehow I still feel Mitt Romney let that one pass so he can help out his party by scaring votes out of people.

A lot of voters are so adamant about gays not having rights that they'll vote for people they don't even want to vote for. That's toxic on so many levels. That's why Obama had to tiptoe around that issue to get elected. And it may just cost him the next go around, as if he doesn't have enough problems already.

However, I do think that Christians in this country are facing a backlash for not actively discrediting Roberson's statements and such politics of social engineering under one arbitrary ideal. If I were a Christian I'd be screaming from the rooftops for better leadership! I'd be active in my church and demand that people know exactly how accepting and tolerant the majority of peers I respect actually are. But there's no voice like that. Trust me, the media would cover that voice...a lot! A strong Christian leader going on record against the Ralph Reed clan. That's news!

Well put. I have nothing but problems with religious "leadership" That underlines and highlights a footnote like it's the most important and ignores the rest of what their religion is all about. Denying rights to people ISN'T what religion is about. No matter what the history is, the "leadership" used it to find excuses for denying the rights of others... from the Middle Ages, to America's slave owning past, to today. Thankfully it seems most groups are evolving past that.

I think all right minded Christians NEED to call people like Robertson and Phelps, and the yahoo that said the world was gonna end a month ago out, denounce them, and view them as the fringe groups that offer nothing to Christianity that they are.

 

[RedPiggy]

My only "leader" is God. I don't particularly care for any human leader, whether it's jerks like Frank Graham or Pat Robertson, or even someone I'd really respect, like the Dalai Lama of Buddhism. If we are all the same (more or less), I don't see why there has to be ANY PERSON standing at the front of the room dictating to everyone else. It's why I stay mostly on religious internet forums. We all lead ourselves and each other. I mean, there's mods and admins and stuff, but they aren't meant as any kind of religious experts. I tend to have a knee-jerk rejection of the idea I should be listening to a particular person. "Cults of personality" just aren't my cup of tea.

 

[beaker]

I had criticized Obama for being coy or moving slow with gay rights, but with all the stuff on his plate considering, he's been doing quite well this year alone.

I do believe it's absolutely urgent for active Christian progressives who believe
certain preachers are soliciting hate to speak out

Maybe a reason more mainline Christians don't speak out on the Robertson/Phelps types is because they're kind of a parody and noone takes them seriously. Unfortunately, I can almost guarantee that it was not merely fringe churches in California during election cycle 2008 telling their flock how imperative it was to vote yes on 8. Many Christians of all walks, as progressive as they've come, still draw the line at gay marriage unfortunately.

But you're right, the single biggest contingent that aggressively pushes anti gay legislation are right wing Christian politicians both at the federal and state level(strangely or not, a number of them have turned out to be closet gays)
The unfathomably horrific agenda against gays in Uganda was conceived and pushed by Washington DC Republicans(often over "power breakfasts") MSNBC covered that aspect.

It frightens me to know that in 2011 gay and transgendered people still get randomly attacked in America. The climate with *some* segments of the male population are as homophobic as ever. Sadly, we still need to come a long way since the period of Matthew Shepard awareness.